FIRST SESSION

SIXTH & SEVENTH SITTINGS	NORMAL		25 NOVEMBER, 8 AND
								9 DECEMBER 1999

VOLUME 9

SPINE:	VOLUME 9 1999


NB HEADING:  QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS TO REPLACE THE WORDS DEBATES AND PROCEEDINGS

SIXTH SESSION

FIRST TO THIRD SITTINGS		NORMAL		JANUARY TO MARCH 1999

VOLUME 6

SPINE:	VOLUME 6 1999

NB MIDDLE LINE OF SPINE: QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS TO REPLACE THE WORDS DEBATES AND PROCEEDINGS

JANUARY TO MARCH 1999

[I can see that the unions are present in Parliament today].
(pg 1 ln 10)

TRANSLATION:  Mr Speaker, I give notice that I will move on the next sitting day:

	Noting with serious concern the allegations uttered by hon member Dr Radebe regarding the unlawful and corrupt behaviour of policemen in Mpumalanga;

	And noting with concern that these policemen supplied guns to gangsters, so that the innocent could be killed;

	Therefore, believing that it is the duty of the Legislature to be the beacon of peace and protector of its people.



THEREFORE RESOLVES:

	(a)	to call on the Premier to institute a commission of inquiry to investigate these allegations;

	(b)	that the commission of enquiry should compile a thorough report to be presented to this hon House; and

	(c)	to ensure that the investigation is carried out in a proper manner to ensure the conviction and incarceration of such police officers.  T/E
(pg 3 ln 34)

[They are on strike]
(pg 4 ln 24)

[It is always the case with these unions, they know when to go on strike].
(pg 4 ln 26)

[No, no, the hon member Ngcobo is used to doing it.  [LAUGHTER]
(pg 28 ln 32)

[Mr Mkhize you have six minutes]
(pg 32 ln 8)

[The hon member is left with one more minute]
(pg 33 ln 12)

TRANSLATION:  Thank you, Mr Speaker, and your House.  I want to express my gratitude in connection with this report that the Prince has presented to us.  We are grateful for it.

The main thing that I would like to say about this report that has been presented, and something else that I would like to highlight from this, there are still complaints left that we need to rectify.  Such as: when an old people go to collect their pension, it sometimes happens that the pension is discontinued.  It becomes a great battle and takes a long time for the pension to be paid again.  The pensioners then finds themselves in a situation where they have to go backwards and forwards for a long time before the pension is restored.  This is one of the complaints that the community still has.

Sometimes the fault lies with the very people that are employed to pay out the pensions.  They cause the old people to go up and down and a long time elapses before they receive the money.

Another thing that is important, especially in our areas, Mr Minister, is that the pensioners have the problem of having to get up very early in the morning while it is still dark and go and stand in long queues.  Old people have to go and stand in long queues irrespective of whether the weather is hot or whether it is raining, or whatever the weather may be doing.  They stand in long queues until after sunset.  This is still one of the things that it would be appreciated very much if the Department and the Minister's Department, the Prince's Department could look into this.  Because this is one of the things which still bothers the community very much.

One other thing which arises from this, I gain the impression that the staff who are employed to pay out the pensions do not do their work in a satisfactory manner.  This is one of the things which bothers us.

In some families you find that the pensioner is the only person who buys food for the home, and when you find that the pension has been discontinued a situation arises that there is no food to eat.

In regard to these children, to whom it is said money should be paid, these are the children who are younger than seven up to the age of seven.  There are families where not one person in the family is working.  In such a situation one finds that those children cannot be given any food.  What are they going to eat?  How are the members of that particular family going to survive?  In such a family, you might as well say that that household does not exist.  It is as if that home has been closed up, because there is nothing that can be of any assistance to them.

In this direction down south which is the direction from which I come, there are places where people have been going backwards and forwards for a long time.  Promises have been made that they will receive pensions.  Others eventually fall victim to unscrupulous officials who bribe them with promises that they will secure them pensions.  That is why I am saying this is one of the complaints which we would direct to the Department, and we would suggest that some sort of plan of action be put into place.

I am aware that the Minister will not be able to attend at once to all these things I have referred to, but these are the things which exist in the community, these are things which are actually happening.

In regard to the children who are not receiving sufficient support, it is my view that the lack of support is one of the reasons that you find children living on the streets, that you find children that are no longer living at home, because these children are not being properly supported at home.

Another problem is that there are certain instances where the burden of support falls squarely on the shoulders of grandmother and grandfather, where the parents of the children are not involved at all, where the parents of the children do not even live close by.  Eventually these children get involved in these things which we see, such as the abuse of drugs and all other like mannered things, and you find that it is even small children that are involved in these things.  The main reason for this is hunger.

We would appeal to the Prince in relation to what I have just mentioned, and ask whether it would not be possible for him, together with his Department, to take a very serious look at the situation.

Therefore, we are requesting that even though we know that we need the support of the government, and also the support of the community in this thing.  That is why we are asking that this should be something that we should all become involved in.  If you see a certain incident in your area, and you see something happening similar to this, because this does not reflect well, in fact it is something which brings shame upon us, it brings shame upon our government.

So, we are requesting that in connection with this report for which we are very grateful, that certain things that we see happening should be rectified.  We request that this should be something which should be carefully looked into, in order to see what solution we could bring forward in regard to this which is happening before us.  We should examine the situation carefully.

Something else which is important, which I dare not leave out, and which I want to mention, and something else that we would like to request the government and also request the Committee which has got to do with this issue, is that this issue should be carefully examined.  The issue I am referring to is the issue of people who take advantage of other people all over the place - at the paypoints where the pensions are paid out there are a lot of people who take advantage of other people, a lot of corruption and fraud takes place.

These people are still there and they are people who take advantage of other people regarding the issue of pensions.  There are still many people who exploit other people in regard to the issue of pensions as a whole.  Thank you.  T/E
(pg 35 ln 19)

[One minute left]
(pg 37 ln 5)

TRANSLATION:  Lastly, Mr Speaker, I want to express my thanks to our Committee with which we work peacefully, we work in harmony, we assist each other.  We went to these places, many places, especially after the rains, we went to the places where people have been devastated by water and floods.  We did everything that we did in harmony.  We assisted each other.  We did not allow politics to enter the situation.  We did not politicise the situation.  I would request that we should continue in this vein and work in this vein as we are working as one.  Thank you.  T/E
(pg 37 ln 15)

[The hon member has one more minute].
(pg 38 ln 19)

TRANSLATION:  Mr Speaker, and your hon House, I am grateful to get this opportunity to speak to hon members in this hon House.  I heard the report of the hon Minister.  The hon Minister spoke about the Inanda Service Centre.  I, as a resident of Inanda, and also as a member of the youth of Inanda, we used to refer to it as the IMC at that time when it was in operation.  The assistance which we received was money which we received from the National Government.  The aim of this was to assist the children who came from gaol, and also those who had been away from their homes for a long time.  These people were assisted in regard to their careers.

In Inanda there is only one office which is situated at Inanda Newtown A, which serves the community of Inanda which comprises of 1,13 million people.  It comprises the community of Inanda Mission, Mzinyathi, Osindisweni, Etafuleni, also Inanda and the whole of Maoti.

Yesterday a report was received that there were 15 people that were chased away from this office because of a shortage of workers in that office.  There are only four employees in that office.  They do not have vehicles, they do not have a computer to use.  The people were chased away because the four employees had gone on study leave.  There was only one employee there.  This person said to these people that they should return in March of the year 2000.

There is an Indian township which borders on Inanda.  In this township of Phoenix there are 12 social workers, there are two motor vehicles, there are clerks that are available at all times, that is during all working hours.  These people serve a far smaller community than the community of Inanda.

In the areas of KwaDukuza and KwaMaphumulo there are only four social workers to serve this area.  They have two motor vehicles which they use, they do not have computers.  The people from this area were taken off the programme, which is a programme to combat hunger, because it was said they do not qualify for the programme because the situation in which they lived was very good.

For two years there was something which was called "social relief for Indians only".  This programme was for Indians only.  As we speak now, this situation still prevails, but our black people are not assisted in any way.

Yesterday was the funeral of a child of eight years, who was struck by a motor vehicle that collects refuse from the houses.  The social workers did not visit this area.

There is evidence with the police at KwaDukuza that there are four bodies of children that have been found in the rubbish bins where some people rummage for food.  These are people who belong to the community of KwaDukuza.  All the food they eat they pick up from there.  I am requesting the following from the Minister and the Committee, I am requesting them that they should look into the following:

*	I am requesting firstly, the redeployment of all social workers.  
*	Secondly, the whole issue about which areas should be included in the programme to combat hunger should be revisited, especially the Port Shepstone area. 
*	That if the posts for these workers or employees do exist, that they should be employed speedily.  
*	That there should be a programme of IMC in all the areas. 
*	That provision should be made in the budget for this programme.  
*	That people employed at regional office level should visit the districts.  *	That it should be compulsory for all social workers that they should learn to speak all languages, particularly the language that I am speaking.  
*	That the Department should make provision for, and an opportunity for the re-registration of the elderly people who should receive pensions and also the disabled.  
*	That doctors who are in the employ of the government, that is the district surgeons, should be sent to all the districts so that the people who have applied for pensions should be told speedily whether they qualify or not.  

Thank you, Mr Speaker.  T/E
(pg 38 ln 30)

[The hon member Mr Nxumalo you have four minutes]
(pg 42 ln 6)

[The hon member has one minute left]
(pg 42 ln 34)

TRANSLATION:  Mr Speaker, I thank you for this opportunity to speak in connection with the Department of Welfare.  I want to thank the hon Minister for the work that he has done up to now, especially in his fight against corruption in this Department.

It is true that we often hear, when we switch on our radios in the morning, that they talk about somebody who has disobeyed the rules.  In fact, in the report that was made public this morning, we can see the figures that bear testimony to this.  We also often used to hear that the vehicles which transports the money had been robbed and that the money which was meant for the old people had been taken, but now this is diminishing, although it still happens occasionally.  I have already said this, but I want to say that I just want to briefly touch on certain issues which this Department should look out for.

Firstly, there is this programme which is directed towards the burial of people who have no one to bury them.  Previously this was clear and it was done properly, but now I see that there is a problem.  We have now discovered that there is no more money in order to fulfil this task.  The private funeral parlours just say it is not their task and that the government no longer has any money.

At other times we have seen a very bad example at a certain place where we saw that the police were carrying a body in a police van where together with this body were prisoners in the back of the van.  They took this body to a certain spot.  They arrived at this particular spot and they started digging and they buried the body and returned.  People did not even know who the person was that had been buried in such a manner, and why such a person should have been buried in this manner.

Perhaps another thing that we would like the Department to pay attention to would be the long queues that the people have to endure.  One finds that in these places there are no toilets, there is no water in these areas.  If there is water, there is not enough water to provide for the number of people that come to these places.  We would request the Department to look into this issue.

Perhaps I should ask whether the plan of depositing the money directly into the bank accounts does not work in this Province, because we have not seen the whites standing in long queues such as the queues which we find in our communities.  We should also become enlightened because we voted for a better life.

Another issue which needs to be attended to is the programme which relates to disabled people.  Some of these people have been disabled due to sickness.  I say this programme takes too long. By the time this programme comes to fruition, some of these people are already dead.  Something else which needs to be looked into by the hon Minister, and this is the very last thing that I am going to mention, is the involvement of the committees which exist in this area of pensions.  What needs to be looked into is precisely what role these committees play, because we have found that in certain areas we have heard that an amount of R2,00 has been taken from the people, from the old ladies and at other times we have found that an amount of R10 has been collected and it is then said that certain Ministers are going to come to the old ladies.  The Department should look into this in order to establish whether it is indeed happening and if so, to prevent it.

That was the last thing I wanted to say, Speaker.  Thank you.  T/E
(pg 43 ln 2)

[We thank you]
(pg 43 ln 33)

TRANSLATION:  But I want to say that crime is rife in our country, and it will not be eradicated by the Department of Welfare acting on its own.  Crime will only be eradicated if we all join hands.  Crime will be eradicated by the strengthening of all the laws of our country.  Rogues must feel the yoke of the law around their neck.  We could say that dishonest people and rogues have no place in my Department.  T/E
(pg 48 ln 13)

[Hon Minister, I think somebody wants to make a point of order]
(pg 48 ln 27)

TRANSLATION:  Thank you very much Mr Speaker.  It is obvious that the IFP are no longer in charge of this Province.  Just notice that he is no longer here today.  I heard somebody say maybe they have joined a union.  Hon members they govern us, but they are not present today. 

Mr Speaker I wanted to state that I am afraid to go home because when I got home it was already dark, because we stay here until very late.  When I arrived home yesterday it was already dark.  T/E
(pg 54 ln 3)

TRANSLATION:  I am not taking a question.  Yesterday afternoon when I arrived home it was already dark and there was a thunderstorm.  When I entered Mr Ngcobo asked me what he had done wrong.  You keep on talking but there are no results.  He said that I should embark on a real job, so as to understand the situation in our constituencies. 

He says there are particular laws, policies and environmental regulations but if you look at the municipality they have no power and finances to implement them.  He says no, I should get real.  T/E
(pg 54 ln 21)

[once you have touched the women, you have touched the core]
(pg 60 ln 5)

[A river in flood]
(pg 60 ln 6)

[The hon member Mr Nxumalo has four minutes].
(pg 62 ln 33)

TRANSLATION:  Mr Speaker, and the hon House.  I am grateful for this opportunity to say what I have to say.  What I am going to say concerns the programme which was rectified in a very gratifying way, and in a way which has become customary for him, the hon Minister Singh.  Yesterday he gave us details regarding issues of agriculture.  T/E
(pg 72 ln 2)

[a barn]
(pg 17 ln 2)

[The hon member has one minute left]
(pg 72 ln 31)

[The hon member has one minute left]
(pg 73 ln 19)

TRANSLATION:  Because even the other things which are no longer sowed and reaped, the community still has a problem.  When I am talking here, Mr Speaker, about farmers, I am talking about white farmers only, and I think that the hon Minister should devise a strategy so that black farmers can also be assisted and the small subsistence farmers who are trying to get something to eat and to make a small profit.  

It is difficult for them to improve their lot because they live next to these huge farms that belong to the whites and even if they want to buy the farm, the whites just say R1 million.  Perhaps if a plan could be made for them to be able to buy in instalments...

Perhaps if they could have an opportunity so that in future they can buy.  The hon Minister spoke about the programme to combat hunger.  This is a good opportunity, this programme of combatting hunger.  We would be very glad if this opportunity could be broadened to all the different areas and if this opportunity could also come to the Umzumbe area.  Even there people are suffering from hunger.  T/E
(pg 73 ln 24)

[hang on my friend]
(pg 77 ln 22)

[Inkosi, my age mate].
(pg 77 ln 28)

[You will give it to me tomorrow, my brother]
(pg 78 ln 10)

[If the Inkosi follows the right channels, he will get an opportunity].
(pg 78 ln 12)

TRANSLATION:  Speaker, as we have seen in the areas of Inkosi Mlaba, which is the KwaXimba area, there is a firm there which is known as Thor.  We have also heard of the place in the Durban area which is known as the Wentworth area.  We know that the community there has got the same problems.  T/E
(pg 78 ln 26)

[Mr Speaker, the Mngadi maiden thanks you]
(pg 79 ln 12)

[The hon member is left with a minute].
(pg 81 ln 36)

TRANSLATION:  Hon Minister Mantshinga, lastly, there are these offices for agriculture which are all over the place, which we all know that in times past these offices worked very well.  Today, these offices have problems.  There is confusion in the community now because the tasks which were previously performed by these offices is no longer able to be performed by them.  When the community arrives to ask for things, they are told that there is no money to do the tasks, the things will have to be borrowed from the Eshowe office.

Would it be possible to assist these people that are asking for water, who want to have their gardens fenced ...

At the moment these people are no longer to receive assistance.  Some of the people who previously received assistance were those people who were farming sugar cane.  These people previously received assistance by having the roads between the sugar cane graded.  The sugar cane was able to be carted from there to places outside, they were able in this fashion to sell the sugar cane and make a living.

Lastly, in closing, Mr Speaker, I want to talk about an issue, in fact it is a request to the Minister to ensure that there is unity amongst the people who have livestock.  Also that people must be encouraged to farm the land which they have so that the places where the people live they will be able to have animals which can be of assistance to them.  This will assist them to survive in the areas where the people live so that they can afford to buy the farms which are very expensive.  I am referring to the large farms.  T/E
(pg 82 ln 8)

TRANSLATION:  I want to express my thanks to all the hon members who took part in the march which we held today.  We were very happy to see the members doing this because they were part of the community.  That is something which is very good.  I want to express my thanks to the members for this.  T/E
(pg 87 ln 11)

[I want to announce that the hon Deputy Speaker, Mr Willies Mchunu's son passed away.  Can I request the hon members to rise].
(pg 88 ln 16)

[I have no idea of what is going on.  I cannot see you Mkhatshwa].
(pg 97 ln 21)

[Hon members it would be better if we work together and not pull in different directions.  I will say no more as I might sound negative.  Thank you]
(pg 127 ln 11)

[The hon member is left with one minute]
(pg 127   ln 30)

TRANSLATION:  Thank you Mr Speaker and the hon House.  In order to consider the motion before us, the hon members will have to think deeply.  

Firstly, I David Ntombela agree that there has to be statues of the present rulers, for instance of the President and the Premier of the Province, Mantshinga.  I think we need to be careful of people who suggest that we remove the statues of our heroes.  They are our heroes.  The statues here at Ulundi are of our heroes, from who we inherited this land, the land God gave to us.

There are no statues here of ordinary people, they are all our heroes who have contributed a lot towards this country and its people.


I know that the proposer of the motion did not intend that but if he did he must take the history into consideration.  We do not have statues of just anyone.  It is always of someone who has made his mark on the history of this country.   T/E
(pg 128 ln 6)

[Thank you, Nduna]
(pg 128 ln 17)

[This is a good debate because sometimes we discuss sensitive issues].
(pg 138 ln 23)

[I think that the hon member has completed the debate].
(pg 139 ln 4)

[Switch on your microphone]
(pg 141 ln 28)

[Can I have your attention hon member?  Did you say what the hon member says you said]?
(pg 145 ln 6)

TRANSLATION:  Please let us use parliamentary language.  That will help us hon members because if we continue in this manner we will not be respecting this House.  Therefore I will request the House to use appropriate language because we are hon members.  T/E
(pg 145 ln 30)

[I think we are going to have to listen to the tapes and find out what they were saying].
(pg 147 ln 19)

TRANSLATION:  

	We are called to rallies by the hostel leaders. They encourage us to rise against the opposite political parties.  When we gather with the Amakhosi they encourage us to annihilate our political opponents.  The same thing applies to our political conventions.  

	Therefore it is important that the political leaders include the people at the grass-root level to be involved in the signing of the agreement.  That will encourage political tolerance among us, which will inspire us to co-operate in restoring peace and stability.  T/E
(pg 148 ln 25)

TRANSLATION:  Thank you Madam Speaker.  I am glad that this debate is taking place at this time as it is necessary.  We need the co-operation of all the members of this House.  This also applies to the ordinary person out there in the street.

This debate will address the needs and grievances of the people in the Province of KwaZulu-Natal.  It is not easy for our people to unite and co-operate because in order for this to happen we need a good spirit and harmony.

In order for a person to respect others he must respect himself.  Mr Speaker I know that some of the members regard it as a joke when we mention co-operation.  I am ashamed about the political unrest and arguments that often take place between the political parties when we visit and have meetings in the community.  This normally happens when the political leaders are campaigning and they try to perform in front of their supporters.  We expect members of Parliament to be united on these issues but once they leave the Legislature they then portray their party political affiliation.

In conclusion, I would request that this hon House commits itself to working towards eradicating poverty, disease and any other related matters.  We can follow the same procedures and methods that our parties follow.

Thank you, Madam Speaker.  Maybe because of our management, we may help our people in different ways because we have different views as we come from parties with different constitutions.  T/E
(pg 149 ln 22)

[He has almost completed seven minutes].
(pg 158 ln 24)

[I do not know if members have a copy of the Bill]
(pg 161 ln 13)

[It means that I am the only one that has a copy.  Please check the copies thoroughly]
(pg 161 ln 14)

[Mr Speaker the United Democratic Movement fully supports this Bill].
(pg 163 ln 23)

[I request all the members because it was their request that...]
(pg 164 ln 3)

TRANSLATION:  It was a request from the members that we have a wonderful celebration.  Therefore I expect all the members to attend.  I will have to keep an attendance register to mark those  members absent who do not attend.  Those who do not attend will be forsaking me.  The House adjourns until 9 o'clock tomorrow.  T/E
(pg 164 ln 8)

[He is a bull].
(pg 183 ln 2)

[We thank you for saving us time.  I now call on the hon member Mr Nel to deliver his speech.  He has six  minutes.]
(pg 183 ln 21)

[What are you doing in this House because we do not see any money, only Mercedes'.  You are our superiors but we do not get anything from you.  When are we going to gain?  We are hungry].
(pg 186 ln 2)

[When you are employed by the public service you work under difficult conditions].
(pg 187 ln 13)

[Thank you, you have made me a man.  I also believe and hope that I am still powerful and dynamic]
(pg 191 ln 14)

TRANSLATION:  Ndabezitha as we come to the end of the year I would like to thank all the hon members for the valuable speeches they have made.  We have had to overcome many problems but we are progressing.  I pray that God will be with us until we meet again.

We know about the bad conditions and the problems that our leaders face with the killings.  The people are been killed.  When we leave here me must go to our communities and preach the gospel of peace.  God bless us all.  Amen.  T/E
(pg 97 ln 26)

[The hon member has one minute left].
(pg 200 ln 25)

TRANSLATION:  Mr Speaker, I would like to thank the hon Minister for his eloquent speech.

I want to say something about Colenso although the message is quite clear.  Thank you for the work that has been done at Colenso.  The issue was thoroughly discussed during the last sitting.  We received a report from Msekeli and it was clear what their position was.

I am concerned about how long Msekeli is going to be in Colenso. When will the Council and the TLC be able to function independently without the help of Umsekeli.

Another issue which I wanted to touch on was the problem of the transferring of staff.  It astounds me that this process has as yet not been completed.  There are now overwhelming problems as a result of this.  Once when I was a town councillor at Eshowe  I found that the staff had not yet been transferred.  This has caused many problems. 

Talks with the staff revealed that there appeared to be ghost workers who were being paid.  The TLC does not have the power to intervene and solve the problem, because this competency is managed by the Province.  We request the Department to pay attention to this process of staff transfers.

Another matter that I am concerned about is this issue of the Y2K.  Some people have unnecessarily spent money with regards to this issue.  It as been brought to my attention that people have
bought generators and big water tanks.  They believe there are going to be no services after 31 December 1999.

The Department should make it their business to make an announcement in this regard and ensure the people that nothing like that is going to happen.  They must save their money.  It would appear that some of the government departments are involved in intimidating the people.

With this last minute I would like to thank and congratulate the Minister for the good work he is doing and encourage him to continue with it.  I wish you every thing of the best in the new millennium.  T/E
(pg 200 ln 30)

[The next to speak will be Inkosi Gumede who has eight minutes]
(pg 202 ln 5)

[Maybe I am going to interrupt the Inkosi.  The people who are recording the proceedings are complaining about the sound.  You are not coming through clearly.  Can you please use another microphone]. 
(pg 202 ln 9)

[Hon members, I request you to please act in accordance with Rules 53 and 54].
(pg 204 ln 24)

TRANSLATION:  Mr Speaker, I think it is important that we all hear what this hon member has got to say.  He is speaking so fast that we cannot hear anything.  [LAUGHTER].  T/E
(pg 206 ln 1)

TRANSLATION:  I would like to remind the hon member Mr Mchunu that I am in control here.  I am the only person who is in a position to order an hon member to sit down or to speak.  I am the Speaker of this House and there is no contention about it.  I give the orders in this House.  T/E
(pg 207 ln 35)

[Can we please listen to the point of order and let the hon member complete his speech].
(pg 208 ln 24)

[It is a mistake there is no newspaper]. [LAUGHTER]
(pg 209 ln 37)

[Continue hon Minister]
(pg 210 ln 2)

[I do not think we need to make any further fuss about this matter as we are now referred to as Amakhosi]
(pg 210 ln 15)

[Therefore people must not come to the conclusion by saying that we have agreed, we have not agreed.  There is no agreement at all].
(pg 210 ln 35)

[I also had]
(pg 210 ln 27)

[and he also touched on the issue of Colenso.  He mentioned the fact that Msekeli is helping a lot.  He also complained about the transfer of staff as those staff members are not employed by the local council].(pg 212 ln 34)

[It is not the Department's fault that they cannot do their work.  They have employed the people who must now be controlled by them.  Those who have spoken about the Y2K problem, I do not think there is a problem].
(pg 213 ln 2)

[I do not have a list but out of the kindness of my heart I will see what I can do].
(pg 214 ln 34)

[Thank you, you took less than a minute.  You are a true leader]
(pg 215 ln 20)

[I am happy if the members behave in this manner, because it is now the turn of their leaders].
(pg 216 ln 28)

[You want to raise a point of order even while your leader is speaking].
(pg 217 ln 25)

[he was so close to home]
(pg 219 ln 26)

[There is a problem here]
(pg 219 ln 35)

TRANSLATION:  I would like to remind the members that we are running out of time.  I have requested the caterers to keep the food ready and fresh.  I have arranged for water for the members as the water which we usually drink is not suitable.  I am glad that I am a kind person.  T/E
(pg 220 ln 7)

	DEBATES AND PROCEEDINGS OF

	KWAZULU-NATAL PROVINCIAL LEGISLATURE

	FIRST SESSION
	SIXTH SITTING - THIRD SITTING DAY
	THURSDAY, 25 NOVEMBER 1999

THE HOUSE MET AT 10:04 IN THE LEGISLATIVE CHAMBER, PIETERMARITZBURG.  THE SPEAKER TOOK THE CHAIR AND READ THE PRAYER.

THE SPEAKER:  The House resumes.  Izinyunyane ngiyabona zingenisile namhlanjena.  [I can see that the unions are present in Parliament today].

2.	OBITUARIES AND OTHER CEREMONIAL MATTERS

3.	ADMINISTRATION OF OATHS OR AFFIRMATION

4.	ANNOUNCEMENTS BY THE SPEAKER

THE SPEAKER:  I have no announcements, except that I would like to remind members that at a quarter to twelve we will join the march.  Thank you.  A quarter to twelve.

5.	ANNOUNCEMENTS BY THE PREMIER

THE SPEAKER:  Hon Premier?

THE PREMIER:  Mr Speaker, it is with a deep sense of shock and sadness that we announce the tragic death of 40 school children and the bus driver in a bus accident that occurred at Margate in this Province.  We record our condolences to the next of kin who died under those tragic circumstances.  We join hands with the Minister of Transport in condemning deaths on our roads, particularly deaths resulting from vehicles conveying persons.  Thank you.

THE SPEAKER:  May we all rise for a moment of silence.  

HON MEMBERS STAND

THE SPEAKER:  May their souls rest in peace.  Amen.  Thank you.

6.	TABLING OF REPORTS OR PAPERS

7.	NOTICES OF BILLS OR MOTIONS

THE SPEAKER:  Hon member Mrs Downs?

MRS J M DOWNS:  I would like to move the following motion that:

	This House noting -

	the recent go-slow by the Child Protection Unit in Durban due to:

	(i)		under-staffing by more than 30%;

	(ii)		inadequate and inappropriate vehicles and equipment;

	(iii)		a caseload in excess of 100 dockets in some cases;

	(iv)		no debriefing or psychological services;  and

	FURTHER NOTING -

	that all sexual offences and family violence cases by the implementation of the FCF Services will fall under these units, increasing their workload by approximately 500 cases per month; and

	ALSO NOTING -

	that full training on the Family Violence Act has not been given,

	THIS HOUSE RESOLVES TO:

	(i)		commend the CPU whose success rate is about 70% in difficult circumstances;

	(ii)		call upon the provincial and national commissioners to give these units priority funding in line with policing priorities; and

	(iii)		give adequate training and staff to properly implement the FCS Services.

THE SPEAKER:  Hon member Mr Nel?

MR W U NEL: (Whip):  I hereby give notice that I shall move on the next sitting day of this House that:

	This Parliament:

	noting that in terms of Section 133(2) of the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa, members of the KwaZulu-Natal Provincial Cabinet are accountable collectively and individually to this House for the exercise of their powers and the performance of their functions.

	noting further that one of the mechanisms for holding our Ministers to account is by legitimate relevant questions as provided for in the Rules of this House; and

	noting that in several instances notably the Minister Kankosi-Shandu yesterday, direct questions have not been answered appropriately or in full in this House by Members of Cabinet thereby showing contempt for the House;

	therefore resolves that the Premier and Cabinet be called upon to honour the obligations imposed by section 133(2) in all cases.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

THE SPEAKER:  Hon member Mr Gwala?

MR M B GWALA: (Leader of the House):  Mhlonishwa, Somlomo Baba ngizophakamisa ngosuku olulandelayo:

	Sinakisisa ngokukhulu ukukhathazeka okwashiwo yilungu uMhlonishwa uDokotela Radebe mayelana ngokungaziphathi ngendlela esemthethweni kanye nenkohlakalo ymaphoyisa eMpumalanga.

	Futhi sinakisisa ngokukhathazeka ngokuthi lamaphoyisa anikeza izigebengu izibhamu ukuze abangenacala babulawe.

	Ngakho-ke, sikholewa ekutheni kungumsebenzi walesi Sishayamthetho ukuba sibe yisibani/uphawu lokuthula kanye nomvikeli wabantu baso.

	NGAKHOKE SINQUMA UKUTHI:

	(a)	Sicela ukuba uNdunankulu aqoke iKhomishani yophenyo, ukuphenya lokhu okushiwoyo.

	(b)	IKhomishani yoPhenyo kodingeka yenze umbiko ogcwele, oyokwethulwa kuleNdlu ehloniphekile.

	(c)	Ukuginisekisa ukuthi loluphenyo lwenziwe ngendlela eyiyo, ukwenza isiqiniseko sokubanjwa kanye nokuboshwa kwamaphoyisa anjalo (akhohlakele).

TRANSLATION:  Mr Speaker, I give notice that I will move on the next sitting day:

	Noting with serious concern the allegations uttered by hon member Dr Radebe regarding the unlawful and corrupt behaviour of policemen in Mpumalanga;

	And noting with concern that these policemen supplied guns to gangsters, so that the innocent could be killed;

	Therefore, believing that it is the duty of the Legislature to be the beacon of peace and protector of its people.



THEREFORE RESOLVES:

	(a)	to call on the Premier to institute a commission of inquiry to investigate these allegations;

	(b)	that the commission of enquiry should compile a thorough report to be presented to this hon House; and

	(c)	to ensure that the investigation is carried out in a proper manner to ensure the conviction and incarceration of such police officers.  T/E

THE SPEAKER:  Hon member Mr Ngcobo?

MR P NGCOBO:  Mr Speaker, I give notice that I will move on the next sitting day I will move:

	Noting that:

	(1)	during the holiday ...

MR P NGCOBO:  Ayi kutelekiwe la.  [They are on strike].

THE SPEAKER:  Umthetho wazo lezinto ziyakwazi ukuteleka.  [UHLEKO]   [It is always the case with these unions, they know when to go on strike].  [LAUGHTER]

MR P NGCOBO:

	Noting that:

	(1)	during the holidays and the festive period, about two million people will be visiting Durban; and

	(2)	this period, sadly, is often accompanied by high death tolls on our roads.

	Believing that:

	(1)	the MEC has been pro-active by ensuring high visibility of traffic officers to serve as a deterrent to motorists to behave in a responsible manner.

	this House calls on all the users of our roads to respect our traffic code of conduct so that all users can arrive alive to enjoy the warmth of their families and friends.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  Hon member Mr Burrows?

MR R M BURROWS:  Mr Speaker, I shall move on the next sitting day that this House:

	Calls on the Minister of Safety and Security:

	To immediately institute a full inquiry into the allegations contained in the Daily News of 24 November 1999, regarding the training camps for the so-called "hitmen", aimed at disrupting the national local government elections in the year 2000, and allegedly, in the report, involving a member of this Provincial Legislature.

	The report of the inquiry to be tabled in the House within 14 days of its receipt by the Minister.

THE SPEAKER:  First of all, I would like to acknowledge the presence of the hon member Mr Matthee, who is a member of the NCOP.  Hon member Mr Matthee?

MR P A MATTHEE:  Mr Speaker, I hereby give notice that at the next sitting of the House, I will move that:



	The House takes note of:

	1.	the totally unacceptable high levels of serious crime in South Africa and in the Province of KwaZulu-Natal, and specifically also, violent crimes against women and children.

	2.	the fact that the government, at national level, has as yet not given effect to the undertaking in Section VI of the White Paper on Safety and Security where it is stated that:

		"It is also necessary to undertake an extensive strategy process that will outline the fixed goals and time frames for action in the short, medium and longer term.  This will be completed as a matter of urgency."

	This House requests the Provincial Government of KwaZulu-Natal to:

	(a)	take the lead by giving effect to the aforesaid undertaking in respect of this Province as a matter of extreme urgency;

	(b)	as part of the said strategy process, to investigate the achievability of drastically reducing the levels of serious crime, and specifically also violent crimes against women and children in the Province, to internationally acceptable levels by the end of the term of this Provincial Government;

	(c)	to establish the budgetary allocations required to provide for the necessary Human Resources and equipment to achieve this goal;  and

	(d)	to report back to this House by the end of March 2000 on the progress made in respect of paragraphs 2(a), (b) and (c) aforesaid.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  Hon member Mr Mark Lowe?

MR C M LOWE:  Mr Speaker, thank you very much.  I hereby give notice, Mr Speaker ...

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS AND LAUGHTER.

MR C M LOWE:  I will mark that down, Mr Speaker.  [LAUGHTER]  I hereby give notice that I shall move on the next sitting day of this House:

	That this House:

	notes with respect and appreciation the role of a free and independent press in raising and exposing issues of public concern and holding public representatives to account for their actions.

	Therefore resolves:

	to recognise and reaffirm its commitment to upholding and defending both the freedom of the press in South Africa and the absolute independence of that institution, so fundamental to a free and democratic state.

Thank you, Mr Speaker.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  Hon member ...

MISS L F SHABALALA:  Mr Speaker, I hereby wish to give notice that on the next sitting day of this House, I shall move as follows: 

	that this House:

	Noting:

	the problems, conflicts and frustrations that will be facing the African parents with their kids not being admitted to former white schools when schools re-open next year;

	the fact that governing bodies in most former white schools do not represent the proportionality of pupils attending such schools; and

	the resultant intake of mostly white children and the turning away of most African children.

	HEREBY RESOLVES:

	that the Portfolio Committee on Education and Culture visits those schools where problems might be reported;

	to monitor transformation so that the number of students admitted in those former white schools reflects the population of the area;

	to communicate with the communities about the feelings and perceptions on the in-take of pupils to such schools.

I thank you.

THE SPEAKER:  Hon member Mr Keys?

MR R E KEYS:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  I would like to move the following motion on the next sitting day of this House:

	Noting:

	1.	the Demarcation Board's published proposals for category A, B and C municipalities;

	2.	the significant reduction in the numbers of  municipalities, with a mammoth growth in size of the categories A and B municipalities;

	3.	the lack of information provided by the Demarcation Board to justify its boundary demarcation proposals, which in terms of the Constitution, must take into account the need for municipalities to provide municipal services in an equitable and sustainable manner;

	4.	unrealistic deadlines set by the Demarcation Board for the public to adequately respond to its proposals before final adoption;

	5.	the inclusion of urban and rural areas into single category B municipalities, which does not take into account the fundamental different servicing needs of the communities concerned or the costs of effective governance; and

	6.	the proposals as presented by the Demarcation Board are evidence of collusion by the ANC to take control of this Province by manipulating the structure of local government.

	Hereby resolves to call on the Minister of Local Government to:

	1.	obtain from the Demarcation Board and make available to interested parties in KwaZulu-Natal at all convenient venues, the relevant data, GIS information and other evidence on which the Board's recommendations are based.

MR A RAJBANSI:  On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

THE SPEAKER:  Order!

MR A RAJBANSI:  My point of order relates to the Rules - in accordance to repeated complaints brought by the hon Mr Wessel Nel, my complaint is this, most of what is being read is subject for a debate, the notice of motion shall be brief and to the point.  You have become the brief party, small party.  [LAUGHTER]

THE SPEAKER:  Continue, hon member.  Finish your motion.

MR R E KEYS:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.

	Hereby resolves to call on the Minister of Local Government to:
 
	2.	to facilitate workshops in each Regional Council and TLC during December 1999 to empower community representatives to respond to the Demarcation Board's proposals within the given time frames; and

	3.	challenge the Board's principle of linking urban and rural areas into single category B municipalities, and rather to recommend the establishment of separate, effective, coherent municipalities in each case, which would best meet the needs of the people.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  Hon member Mr Mohlomi?

MR T S MOHLOMI:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  I hereby wish to give notice that on the next sitting day of this House, I shall move as follows: 

	That this House:

	Noting:

	1.	the commitment of this House and the National Government of this country to the promotion of SMME's.

	2.	that once entrepreneurs who fall under this category of SMME's get contracts from the government, they invest large sums of money in the purchase of equipment and in other necessary investments;

	3.	that if these entrepreneurs do not get further contracts, this leads to great losses and such enterprises do not become sustainable.



	Hereby resolves that:

	the Ministers of Finance and Economic Development and Tourism, together with the Provincial Tender Board, work out a plan to ensure sustainability of these SMME's to avoid great losses in investment and job creation.

Thank you.

THE SPEAKER:  Hon member Mr Volker?

MR V A VOLKER:  Mr Speaker, I would like to give notice of the following very brief motion.

	That this House rejects the underlying concept of the demarcation of category B local authorities as proposed by the Demarcation Board.

THE SPEAKER:  Hon member Mr Mabuyakhulu?

MR M MABUYAKHULU: (Minister of Economic Development and Tourism):  Mr Speaker, I want to give notice that I shall move on the next sitting day of this House:

	That this House:

	Noting:

	the remarkable growth of the GDP for the last quarter by 3.1%;

	this House therefore resolves to congratulate the South African Government for managing the economy so well.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

THE SPEAKER:  Hon member Mr Rajbansi?

MR A RAJBANSI:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  I have never colluded with the hon Minister.  I hereby give notice that I shall move on the next sitting day of this hon House as follows:

	That this House notes with appreciation that after a negative growth rate for many years before the first democratic election, South Africa is now enjoying a growth rate of over 3%.

	THEREFORE it be resolved to request all parties to engage in an exercise of constructive development, rather than cheap media attracting and media manipulating activities that tend to cloud the all round progress that is being made in our country and in our wonderful Province.

Moved by the Minority Front in the interest of progress.  [LAUGHTER]

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you, hon member Mr Rajbansi.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  Any further motion?  Hon member Miss Nkonyeni.

MRS N P NKONYENI: (Whip):  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of this House I shall move that: 

	This House noting:

	that the Provincial Account was awarded to ABSA Bank;  

	however, noting that ABSA Bank has not even changed its attitude towards the development of SMME's;

	Therefore resolves that:

	the Minister concerned should discuss this matter with the relevant bank since it has an obligation to go an extra mile to assist the disadvantaged communities.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

THE SPEAKER:  Hon member Miss Thakur?

MISS S THAKUR:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  I hereby give notice that I shall move on the next sitting day of this House as follows:

	This House notes the contribution that has been made by South Africans of Indian origin in South Africa - especially in the Province of KwaZulu-Natal.

	Therefore calls upon the hon Premier to arrange for the construction of an Indian monument commemorating the contribution of the Indian community and their arrival and first landing of the SS Truro in 1860, opposite where Truro House has been built.

Thank you.

THE SPEAKER:  Any further motion?  Hon member Ms Swartbooi?

MISS G N SWARTBOOI:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of this House I will move as follows:

	Noting that there are few psychological centres in KwaZulu-Natal and that the existing ones are understaffed.

	noting that there are learners with special education needs in the mainstream education system, especially at primary level; and

	further noting that when you visit schools with these learners with special educational needs you will find that they are dumped and merely left unattended by teachers.

	This House therefore resolves to call upon the MEC for Education and Culture and the Cabinet to ensure that each region has at least one psychological service centre with adequate human and physical resources and begin the process of training at least one teacher per school to do counselling, as well as remedial education.

Thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

THE SPEAKER:  Any further motion?  Hon member Mr Bhamjee?

MR Y S BHAMJEE:  Mr Speaker, I wish to give notice to this House that on the next sitting I shall move:

	Most of the opponents and critics of the Demarcation Board are those who enjoyed the fruits of apartheid; and 

	that the objectors from the DP and NNP do so with the intention to preserve and protect the interest of their support in their traditional base the "white" areas.  As such the DP and NNP are not interested in improving the quality of life of the historically disadvantaged people of the country. 

Thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

THE SPEAKER:  Any further motion?  Okay, thank you.  We now move to item 8.

8.	ORDERS OF THE DAY

8.1	PUBLIC ACCOUNTS DEBATE (RDP REPORT FROM AUDITOR-GENERAL)

THE SPEAKER:  To start the debate I will now call upon the hon member Mr Tarr, who has got eight minutes.

MR M A TARR:  Mr Speaker, today's debate arises out of the report of the Auditor-General on the RDP programme for 1996 and 1997, and then, of course, Mr Speaker, the report of the Standing Committee that was tabled in this House during the last sitting where a number of draft resolutions were attached.

Before I deal directly with the report, Mr Speaker, I would like to raise two other matters.  The first is a matter that has been of concern to the committee and a matter that I think is of concern to this House as a whole, that is the lack of an adequate follow-up procedure for resolutions which are taken in this House.  Many important resolutions are taken and they simply fall off the table.

The Public Accounts Committee, for themselves, are going to institute a mechanism to do this, but I believe that somewhere in the Secretariat this is an issue that should be addressed by the Board, because we take resolutions, very important resolutions, and the reality is that nothing happens.

Mr Speaker, I would also like to remind hon members of the resolution of the Standing Committee on Public Accounts, which goes back to the 1995/96 year, dealing with the RDP Fund.  That is the year before the year which we are debating today.  If you would allow me to quote very briefly from this resolution, Mr Speaker:
	
	No evidence has been produced that the 21 projects for which moneys were disbursed were required to be formally approved by the RDP Co-ordinating Committee.

	There were no proper procedures for administering the RDP projects.

	There was lack of proper documentation of RDP projects.

	That the Director-General as the accounting officer appeared to decide unilaterally on the approved projects.

And finally, this committee recommends:

	In this case we recommended that the expenditure of R770,000 in respect of the 1995/96 financial year be authorised, provided that such authorization should not be seen as setting a precedent relating to future authorization.

So for the 1995/96 year, Mr Speaker, the amount of R770,000 was authorised.

Now Mr Speaker, why I quoted the 1995/96 year is because this debate today deals with the 1996/97 year and the reality is that there has been no improvement whatsoever.  In fact, if anything, it has got worse.

There could be a number of reasons for this.  The first is of course that when the 1995/96 year was reported on, we were already well into the 1996/97 year, so the problems that were identified there, were identified too late to do anything in the 1996/97 year.  But I think what this does point to - and this is also the subject of a previous resolution of the Public Accounts Committee - is the need for a very strong, internal audit section that can go into departments on a regular basis and identify problems before they actually arise because it does not help us to pontificate about problems once they have already occurred.

I understand that this has already been approved by Cabinet that there is an Internal Audit Committee functioning and I would hope - and I think the Committee would hope - that the Internal Audit Section should commence action as soon as possible.  I cannot think of a better way that this Cabinet, or this Parliament could in fact utilise some of its resources and I am hoping that the hon Premier and the hon Minister of Finance will give some attention to this.

Mr Speaker, to get to the current resolution which was tabled in this House, where I indicated that there had been no improvement whatsoever, the general theme going through the Auditor-General's report was as follows:

There were no project files in existence.

There were no clear guidelines for identifying projects that seem to operate on a sort of an ad hoc basis.

There is no guarantee that the committee could find anywhere that deserving people were actually aware that the projects existed at all.  How do we know that deserving communities out there in the deep rural areas even knew about these projects?  It is my submission they did not.

There were no proper controls instituted on many of the projects and this is absolutely unbelievable - the only way to find out that a project had actually happened was to institute a close-out procedure where the Province, at vast expense, had to hire auditors who went out, on the ground, and actually said, "Well, was a borehole drilled here?", or "Was a sewing project implemented here?  Were sewing machines bought?"  And those close-out projects, Mr Speaker, came at vast expense to the Province.  In fact, for the 1995/96 year, the close-out procedure cost about as much as the actual amount of money disbursed.

A few specific issues relating to the present report.  The RDP Bursary Trust.  Here we are asking that the Director-General, or the Department of Economic Affairs and Tourism who have taken over the task, should furnish adequate evidence that this trust in fact has actually been registered.  Once that is done, we want the trustees themselves to actually then post facto authorise the money that was paid out in bursaries.

The Premier's Peace Trust Award.  Again, R10m was paid into this account with the Old Mutual and as I stand here today there is still no evidence that such a trust exists.  We request that this money be paid back to the Province, together with any interest there on.

The third thing that the Committee is requesting is that any future trusts that are set up with public monies, should in fact be audited by the Auditor-General.

Then finally, Mr Speaker, the Discretionary Fund, in terms of what has happened there, a number of these projects in the Discretionary Fund have actually been handed over to the South African Police.  There was the close-out procedure where auditors came in and they recommended that some of these projects, because they could find no evidence that they existed, no documentation whatsoever, they believe that they should be handed over to the police.

What the committee is not happy with, Mr Speaker, is that these matters get handed over to the S A Police and they simply get filed away somewhere or lost.  We want to ensure that this House gets regular feedback on what is happening with these investigations and we are requesting that the SAPS Commercial Unit be requested to co-ordinate the investigations.

Further, Mr Speaker, we are asking that the Director-General, who was in charge of these ...

THE SPEAKER:  The hon member has one minute.

MR M A TARR:  During this whole sorry state of affairs, which is absolutely appalling, that the Director-General himself should be personally responsible for reporting back to this House on what is happening with these investigations.

Finally, Mr Speaker, with regard to the year that we are discussing at the moment, the Committee is not prepared to recommend that anything be authorised at this stage.  We want to chase every cent right down to where it was spent, or where it was mis-spent and only once we know what has happened to every cent, will we then apply our minds as to whether we are going to authorise anything or not.  But it is a clear, I believe, a serious indictment on the Director-General during this period, that these monies under his control could have been allowed to be disbursed in such a totally irresponsible manner.  Thank you, Mr Speaker.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

THE SPEAKER:  Hon member Mr Dlamini, who has got six minutes.

MR F DLAMINI:  Thank you.  Mr Speaker, in this debate there are a few issues that we need to come to terms with.

Firstly, the RDP funds from the time they were set aside, were not seen as part of the provincial budget estimates.  From an oversight point of view, it therefore became difficult to monitor the application of RDP funds.  All this happened when our portfolio committees were going through a learning curve.  The concept of an overseeing role was not known.

Accounting officers of the various departments did not see themselves as being accountable for funds that were not reflected in their votes.  Be that as it may, the Director-General's Department remained accountable for such funds.  A close scrutiny of the manner in which the allocation of funds was done, especially the R14m that was known as discretionary funds, left a lot to be desired.  The loopholes created by lack of capacity for handling RDP funds coupled with perceived non-accountability by accounting officers does not absolve the DG's Department from poor handling of the RDP funds as state expenditure.

Mr Speaker, we also need to view the application of the RDP funds against the backdrop of the principles governing the Reconstruction and Development Programme.  We need to remind ourselves that RDP was intended to be an integrated socio-economic framework, designed to deal with the socio-economic inequities of the apartheid era.

In the development of the RDP framework as a government policy, the first principle considered was to create an integrated and sustainable programme to meet the basic needs of the people.  Whilst on the subject of basic needs, we should inquire into how local communities and organisations should be involved in RDP initiatives.

The handling of the KZN Peace Initiative was very unsatisfactory.  There were very specific perceptions created in respect of the R100m allocated from State expenditure in 1996.  Rightly or wrongly, we, as public representatives, communicated to our constituencies that this money would be awarded to communities that could show proof of peace initiatives and peace agreements to assist affected people to reconstruct their houses, their lives and restore normal community life.

We have learnt from various discussions on that matter that a firm of consultants conducted what they termed research and consultation with community leaders.  After these consultations they decided to establish some community halls and projects and paid themselves a handsome figure, amounting to millions of rands.  At a meeting with this consulting company, we discovered that some peace funds were spent where no violence had occurred at all - awarding a community for peace where there has never been violence.  This is what I regard as French logic.

The truth of the matter is that after the carnage has come and gone, the Province still has thousands of displacees - around 1994 the number was over 500,000 in this Province - who are refugees in their own motherland.  From this experience it is absolutely clear that only the consultants benefited.  There have been very disturbing revelations also about consultants used in the RDP funds.  One of them is:

	a formally signed contract between the office of the Director-General and Njabulo Development Consultants was unavailable for audit.

This is an extract from the Auditor-General's report.  This obviously is non-compliant with accounting practices.

Developing the country's human resources is one of the key programmes of the RDP.  Some fly-by-night organisations have used this principle to obtain funds.  There appears to have been no thorough investigation of the so-called community development organisations before allocations were made.

THE SPEAKER:  The hon member is left with a minute.

MR F DLAMINI:  Shonakhona Development Association, a well known clique of State land invaders in Durban, received an amount of R52,000 during the 1996/7 financial year.  It is difficult to establish how many of the youth of Lamontville were trained in multi-working skills because KTT is no longer in existence.  It is therefore not possible to establish how much was spent on training, and how much was used for what.  Winston Churchill would have said, "Some training, some expenditure".  This is taxpayers' money, that is the bottom line.

In conclusion, Mr Speaker, of the 39 projects being investigated by SAPS, the following seem to be common:

	-	Non-compliance with accounting procedures;

	-	Lack of thorough investigation of projects;

	-	No visible mechanism was built into the system to ensure appropriate application of State funds.

THE SPEAKER:  The hon member's time is up.

MR F DLAMINI:  I thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

THE SPEAKER:  The list of speakers has been changed, as agreed to by the Whips.  I will now call upon the hon member Mr Konigkramer, who has got seven minutes.

MR A J KONIGKRAMER:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  I would like to deal with the issue before us in a slightly different fashion, not dealing with the figures.

In 1659 Jan Van Riebeeck planted a bitter almond hedge in an effort to separate the new settlers from the indigenous people of Africa.  It was an exercise in futility and rather foolish, yet it took more than 300 years to undo the folly of segregation.

In 1999 plans were announced - this time in the Province of KwaZulu-Natal - to plant another form of hedge with bitter qualities.  We have been told that a sisal hedge is to be planted along sections of the N3 to separate traffic from cattle.  The hedge, we are told, is so bitter and unpalatable to cattle that they will not go anywhere near it.  We are even told by the new democrats that the effectiveness was proved on the borders of the apartheid state in the days of total onslaught.  In my judgment, Mr Speaker, the bitter sisal hedge will prove just as foolish as Jan Van Riebeeck's hedge.

Mr Speaker, you might ask what this has got to do with Public Accounts.  Let me try and explain. 

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS.

THE SPEAKER:  Order, hon member Mr Cele!  Please behave yourself.

MR A J KONIGKRAMER:  Mr Speaker, why do authorities in our Province have to strive to separate cattle from cars on the N3 between Durban and Pietermaritzburg?  The reason they have to do so is because of thieves.  Thieves who steal fences paid for from the public purse.  So, Mr Speaker, in a sense, the sisal fence is designed to separate thieves from law-abiding citizens.  I say again, Mr Speaker, it will fail, just as Jan Van Riebeeck's futile attempts at segregation failed.

We are not going to root out theft by dealing with its symptoms.  You will only stop theft if you deal with the causes.  Until we demonstrate that we have the will to halt what is wrong, crime and all other forms of lawlessness will continue.

Mr Speaker, if I could just go back again to the freeway.  About a week ago I was travelling between Durban and Pietermaritzburg when I noticed a team of people with a van removing aloes.  The vehicle was an NU registered vehicle and there was a white man and two assistants.  The two assistants, of course, that were doing the work, were black.  They were busily removing the aloes.  So I stopped, telephoned Directory Information and I got the number of the Camperdown Police.  When I telephone the Police Commissioner he simply could not understand what I was going on about.  He could not understand that it was illegal to take the aloes.  I gave him my name, I gave him my number, I told him I was a member of Parliament, but there was no police action.  The aloes were being removed, but the fences have already been stolen.

Mr Speaker, just about two weeks before that, again on the road between Durban and Pietermaritzburg, I came across a group of people removing a fence.  I stopped there to inform a traffic officer who was busy trapping, that people nearby were stealing the fence.  He just continued trapping and said it was futile to try and stop it.

Mr Speaker, exactly the same thing with the aloes and the fences has happened at Colenso and it has happened with the 39 RDP projects that we know about, involving some R3.4m.  At Colenso there are attempts to try and blame the Department of Local Government and Housing for the irregularities there.  Some of my colleagues argue endlessly against invoking the provisions of Section 139 of the Constitution, yet I have not heard any  outright condemnation of what in essence is public theft.

What is going on, Mr Speaker, on the freeways, at Colenso and the RDP projects that have been brought to the Public Accounts Committee is directly attributable to policies which were adopted in the past, policies of ungovernability, of entitlement that was preached as a form of liberation strategy.  I believe that unless we begin to address this and until such time as we acknowledge and state publicly that it was wrong, we will not solve the problems which have been brought to the Public Accounts Committee.

Mr Speaker, on a broader canvas, I wish to make the following comments.  I think we need to try and understand what is going on with regard to theft, both provincially and nationally.  If you look at it on a broader canvass, you will notice that in South Africa's history there were essentially three phases of development.  The first phase was the discovery of diamonds and gold and the influx of large numbers of foreigners.  That was the first phase of the Industrial Revolution.  The second phase started earlier this century during the Great Depression when farmers, and mainly Afrikaners, were forced off the land.  The third phase, Mr Speaker, which we are still experiencing now is the urbanisation of black people.

Urbanisation is always a very traumatic experience and under apartheid it was made infinitely worse by deliberate policies of destroying families.

Mr Speaker, I just want to conclude by making an observation.  If we accept that urbanisation is traumatic and if you look at the Public Accounts and you look at where most of the problems are, invariably they are in urban areas.  You do not find the problem in rural areas.  People do not steal fences in rural areas, they steal them in the urban areas.  Why is that?  I suggest that we should give very serious thought to policies which are deliberately designed to destroy, for example, the institutions of Ubukosi, because that process of urbanisation is made infinitely worse by trying to destroy structures which have served African communities for more than 2,000 years.  By trying to destroy those overnight, we are going to make these problems which people are faced with infinitely worse.

Mr Speaker, in conclusion, I say that we need to seriously reflect about the causes of these things instead of always dealing with the systems ...

THE SPEAKER:  The hon member is left with a minute.

MR A J KONIGKRAMER:  I thank you.

THE SPEAKER:  I will now call upon hon member Mr Nel, who has got five minutes.

MR W U NEL: (Whip):  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  It is indeed a tragedy that the RDP, so well intentioned as it was, has ended up in financial failure.  Simply the needy who were intended to be helped, did not get value for the public money that we tried to spend on them.  The reasons are abundantly clear and they have been stated in this House often before, notably by the hon Minister of Finance.  The reasons are that instead of awarding the money to line functions with clear conditions attached to such moneys, they were awarded to the RDP to be administered separately, without sufficient capacity, resulting in duplication and confusion and also importantly, in many instances, political interference for the purpose of patronage.

The hon Mr Dlamini referred to the fact that there was an oversight failure in the administration of RDP funds.  It happened not only in this Province, it happened in many other places too, but regrettably, KwaZulu-Natal is one of the prime examples of how this failed.

We must remember, sir, that since 1994 there has been roughly R350m made available to the Province in various forms of RDP money, and that excludes the major sources of housing development.  I am talking simply of the "Peace Fund", and the Discretionary Funds which have been awarded to this Province.  Some of it has been actually lost, much of it has been wasted and most of it, to this day, remains unspent.  We must ask ourselves, what do they, the people who were waiting for this expenditure and the benefits, what do they think of our performance in this regard?

We must have sympathy, of course, with the hon Director-General for not having the capacity, initially, to deal with this money which should not have been in his hands in the first place.  But we must ask the question, why five years down the track has somebody not called a halt, or fixed the situation?

The hon Mr Tarr referred to the 1994/95 report where we dealt with the expenditure of R770,000 of Discretionary Funds.  There were simply no records to speak of and we eventually, as he mentioned, spent almost R450,000 to try, in a futile effort to audit that expenditure.  We failed.  Eventually the Public Accounts Committee recommended authorization of that expenditure because it had become futile to follow it.  However, importantly, there was that condition that this was not a precedent and it would not be repeated.  Sadly today, as he correctly points out, we are here to debate the next year's report and the conditions have not improved.  So we cannot approve, or authorise, any unauthorised expenditure, as we say in the resolution, until there are adequate answers for all these problems.

Sir, the message that goes out from this House today must be clear, and it relates to accountability.  Earlier, I moved a motion on the issue of accountability - it must be very clear that this House must never, ever simply be defeated by fatigue.  We must not give up because we just do not get the answers.

I refer to one example in point.  In the RDP Expenditure Report, we have the report of R10m that was invested in the so-called Premier's Peace Award Trust.  This amount was invested with Old Mutual in March of 1997, two years ago.  We have tried in vain to get answers to the conditions and some of the circumstances regarding this investment.

I have in my hand a letter, emanating from someone who calls himself a production manager at Old Mutual, in which they say that no commissions were paid to persons outside of Old Mutual.  The very clear question that was asked in the committee was, was any commission paid, and to who, inside of Old Mutual, because we actually want to know whether there is not a friend of a friend who did the business for a very substantial reward.

THE SPEAKER:  The hon member is left with a minute.

MR W U NEL: (Whip):  The other questions that are not answered is what is the current value of this investment, what is its nature?  Is it simply an interest-bearing investment or does it have other benefits and strings attached.  Have we got value for money in this regard?  Despite the fact that the answer that we received from Old Mutual comes obviously not from a level that is managerially high enough in this instance to satisfy us, we also expect the Director-General to have responded to our repeated questions on this issue.  This is but one example.  This instance, I must also remind the House again, was an investment made with a financial institution when there was no trust deed and I wonder how that financial institution accepted this without proper authorised signatories, without a trust deed.

THE SPEAKER:  The hon member's time is up.

MR W U NEL: (Whip):  Thank you.

THE SPEAKER:  I will now call upon the hon member Mr Volker, who has got five minutes.

MR V A VOLKER:  I thank you, Mr Speaker.  When the idea of an RDP project was introduced, a thick manual was published as to what was intended.  It was a commendable idea.  It was a project which intended to help people in need and it had our full support.  In so far as it is used for the correct purpose, it still has our full support.

But, Mr Speaker, very often, such moneys are made available without proper controls, then there is gross misuse of that money.  Unfortunately, that has been the case, not on all projects, but in sufficient projects to create an impression that there has been a large scale misuse of public funds.

We have the situation that when funds were made available, it was expected that those funds be put to use within a reasonably short time.  The initial arrangement was that each member of the Cabinet should have a discretionary amount of R500,000 which the member of the Cabinet could then indicate as to how it should be put to use.  It did not mean that the Cabinet Minister himself, or the Deputy Director-General should have full administrative control of implementing that project.  The accountable person was the DG.  He was the person who had to see to it that whichever department or Ministry handled the project, should account for it to him so that he, as the accounting officer, should be able to account for the correct use of those funds to the Treasury, to the Auditor-General, etcetera.  And this was just not done.

Now, if large amounts of public funds are made available to be spent for the upliftment of the needy, then it will be inevitable that if there is no proper control, there will be those individuals, at whatever level, be it within government, or be it within the private sector where funds are allocated, who will be lining their own pockets.  Unfortunately, that did occur in some of these projects.

We have already been told that when there was a close-out investigation, referred to a private firm of public investigative auditors in numerous projects they could not find any voucher evidence.  They satisfied themselves that at least the project had been undertaken, whether it was a borehole, or a sewing club, or a candle-making project, or something of that nature.  They satisfied themselves in quite a few instances that at least the project had been undertaken, and there were no vouchers, but they recommended that that be approved and so the Public Accounts Committee approved that.

THE SPEAKER:  The hon member is left with a minute.

MR V A VOLKER:  Thank you.  In 39 cases, they were referred to the police.  We were not given an indication with what details they were referred to the police.  We have had no report whatsoever from the police as to what the result of the investigation was, and that is one of the tragic matters that if things are referred to the police, who are under-staffed, over-worked, we invariably just do not get any response.  We must see to it that public funds are spent correctly for the use of those people for whom it is intended, for the benefit of those people.  I thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  I will now call upon the hon member Mr Aulsebrook, who has got seven minutes.
 
MR J F AULSEBROOK:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  While the Auditor-General's report on vote 15: RDP projects for 1996/97 is the subject of today's debate, we need to look at the preceding years and what gave rise to the situation in this report in order that we understand and are able to learn from our mistakes.

We are dealing with two different funds here.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Point of order.

THE SPEAKER:  Hon member Mr Rajbansi?

MR A RAJBANSI:  The hon member is violating the Rules by shouting "Aulsebrook's casino".  It is a reflection on the wonderful Chairperson of the Casino Committee.  He does not own a casino.

THE SPEAKER:  Who is that member who is shouting at Mr Aulsebrook?

MR A RAJBANSI:  There are about three members.  [LAUGHTER]

THE SPEAKER:  Tell them to behave themselves.

MR A RAJBANSI:  All right.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  Continue, hon member.  [LAUGHTER]

MR J F AULSEBROOK:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  We are dealing with two different funds and that the purpose for and conditions on which they were granted, differ.  Firstly, there was the Peace Fund, the initial R100m, which is reflected in this report.  Then there was the R14m Discretionary Fund, an amount of which was also supplemented by a R30m roll over from the previous year.

Let us look at the period which we as an Administration and a Legislature were in at that time.  There was the amalgamation of departments taking place, there was transformation taking place of the entire administration, and these were given top priority.  The funds were made available at this time and certainly, we as a Province, eagerly accepted them.  We needed them, our Province needed them and there were high expectations from the people on the ground coming into the new South Africa.

The first difficulty that we encountered was the conditions on which the Peace Fund was granted.  There were terms there that were in fact difficult to interpret and the political leaders from the two largest parties were extremely cautious as to how they would proceed with the spending of these funds.  Certainly their caution led to delays and pressure, pressure that was brought to bear on the administration to get going and spend this money.  The DG was then given the responsibility of the Peace Fund, while Discretionary Funds, while still his responsibility, were allocated to the various Ministers to be spent on RDP projects emanating from their departments.  The DG prepared a manual, which Mr Volker referred to.  This is a fairly comprehensive manual and in fact, it looked promising that we were on the right track here.

What happened, in my view, was that because of these pressures caused by the delays, the DG proceeded with the process of identifying projects, assessing them and allocating funds, while the office of the DG did not have the managerial or administrative capacity to in fact handle this task.  These matters only became obvious to us with hindsight.

What we see in this report and subsequent reports, is that the management of these projects left a lot to be desired, but in fact, at the end of the day, most of the projects, as we saw in the close-out reports, have in fact successfully been completed and are functioning.  That being the case, there are still 39 cases that have been referred to the South African Police Services, Commercial Branch, for investigation.  This action will hopefully, for once and for all, determine if there is any criminal wrongdoing and in fact put an end to a lot of the speculation around these projects and funds and their expenditure.

We as a Legislature have also come a long way since those days.  Our capacity has increased.  We are now performing our oversight function more effectively.  But in those days, possibly, we should acknowledge that had we been more vigilant, the situation may not have developed.

Of further concern was the investment of funds in the name of two trusts that were not registered.  There are no copies of those trust deeds, or at least unsigned copies that are available and this must be of concern to us, but other speakers have dealt with that issue.

At a presentation to the Premier's Portfolio Committee a couple of months ago, specifically on the RDP projects, we were assured that subsequent to 1997, the responsibility for the RDP projects transferred to the Department of Economic Affairs, and that this is now being properly managed.  Hopefully the next Auditor-General's report will reflect this.

The lesson we need to learn is that in order to spend funds efficiently and effectively, there needs to be adequate administrative and managerial capacity.  That is certainly what was lacking in this particular instance.  Thank you, Mr Speaker.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Aulsebrook.  I now call upon Mr Rajbansi.  Mr Rajbansi, you have four minutes.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  I believe yesterday and the day before that certain hon members took advantage to deviate from the topic and refer to me.  [LAUGHTER]  But for the benefit of the hon Minister of Finance, I will quote one important leader in this Province, the hon Dr M G Buthelezi, who said, "A change in tactic is not a change in outlook".  So of your criticism of the hon leader of the Minority Front, Dr Buthelezi's one-sentence statement is an answer to Minister Miller in volume, because if he criticizes me then he must look in the mirror and by implication criticizes the organisation to which he belongs.

This debate, Mr Speaker, must be viewed also from a different perspective.  We have development, for example, in Housing, where we have a proper structured department and a proper structured board and a proper structured portfolio committee, where you have the capacity to allocate and monitor.  In fairness to the Director-General, who of course took the responsibility to account for his actions and expenditure, the following was stated by the Auditor-General, and by the consultants, you cannot point a finger at him as far as his integrity was concerned.  For weeks we saw in the newspaper: "Embattled Director-General".  But what we had heard in the Public Accounts Committee also, was the fact that section heads - and Mr Wessel Nel, quite correctly referred to line functions - were reluctant, or refused to take the responsibility to manage the funds.  I have never seen in government that when the boss gives an instruction to the juniors, they refuse.

It was also said that the then Premier and the then Minister of Economic Affairs instructed the Director-General to do something.  It was accepted, as hon members have stated, that he did not have the capacity.  These are the lessons we must learn, Mr Speaker.

Mention has been made about a financial institution receiving investment funds when trusts have not been properly registered, but the present hon Minister of Finance has given us certain undertakings.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  One minute more.

MR A RAJBANSI:  But what I say, you have two types of communities and it is not their fault.  In Housing you have big white firms that go and help people.  You have NGO's that do not get money because they do not have the specialists.  But work has been done, there has been evidence.  But what we have to stand up for are the values relating to the upholding, adhering to financial regulations.  We must analyze the lessons we are leaning from this exercise.  It is a very, very important lesson.

Yesterday I felt sorry for the hon Mr Nelson Raju, he was terrorised by his party to attack me.  I know what he said about me did not come from his heart.  They have to say, "We whites are attacking the MF, come on, you do it, show that a lone Indian is doing it".  [LAUGHTER]

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Your time is up.  Mrs Downs, you have three minutes.

MRS J M DOWNS:  Thank you.  Mr Speaker, the Director-General repeatedly stated that he did not have the capacity in his Department to deal with these funds, but I do not think that it exonerates him entirely from the mess that resulted.  The lack of a board to looking at who actually received the funds, was under his control and there were various other matters.  If I were in his position and I knew that I had no control over State funds, I would not have accepted them.

On the other hand, he had incredible pressure, both from the provincial Cabinet and from the National Minister, which he stated.  The National Minister, he said, spoke to him telephonically and said: "Spend the funds, get them out", and the result is that millions of rands were stolen.  That is the bottom line.  This is where I disagree totally with the hon member Mr Aulsebrook where he says we may resolve from police findings that some of the money was stolen.  That money was stolen was the reason why it was referred to Police Services.  And because there was a lack of proper control, basically, we as a Province said to the people: "Come and take these bags of money.  Do what you like with them and maybe we will catch you if you crook it".  Those who were honest did spend money honestly on their projects and fulfilled their obligations.  Those that were not, bought themselves carpets, microwaves, stoves and whatever else they wanted and basically up until now have got away with it.

Where we have to come in, both as a Legislature and a Public Accounts Committee, is that this situation must not be closed, we must keep it on the agenda until we get some answers.  We need to fiercely lean on the police and say how far is the investigation going, what is happening with the money and we must bring to book the people who have stolen, mis-spent, fraudulently, whatever you would like to call it, those funds.  We must bring them to book because we need to send a clear message that government is not an agency for giving away money to crooks, that it is not an agency to foster corruption, that it is not an agency to basically mis-spend money.  That government must be accountable, that moneys must be spent where they are supposed to be spent and the people of our Province must benefit from the moneys that have been spent in a proper and acceptable manner.  That, I believe, is the bottom line.  We cannot let it rest, and we cannot authorise expenditure which is not going to be properly spent.  I am insisting that we lean on the police.  Thank you, Mr Speaker.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mrs Downs.  Mr Nxumalo, you have three minutes.

MR S N NXUMALO:  Mr Speaker, RDP funding had good intentions to uplift the socio-economic state of our disadvantaged communities.

Due to lack of clear policies as to who keeps the purse, the funds ended in the Director-General's office.  He then indicated that he lacked capacity, yet he was expected to fast-track the RDP.  If we think back to that time, I can remember that although I was not a parliamentarian, the then Minister of RDP said RDP is like a truck carrying all people's needs, it could be cement, corrugated iron, water, anything you can think of which constituted people's needs.

RDP is people-driven.  The people were encouraged to apply quickly because the wagon was moving and waiting for no-one.  We were all taken up with this idea.  As a result, this House was caught napping.  We had no ground rules to play the game.  We had no policies.  We should all share the blame.  Why are we only raising this issue at this late stage when the problem existed from the outset.  At the very beginning we all should have sensed that there would be problems and we should have set guidelines as to what sort of projects were eligible to apply and what management controls were to be put in place.

Mr Speaker, of course some communities have benefited positively from these funds.  I can quote projects which emanated from the KZN Peace Initiative.  There is one that recently was completed in Eshowe, which is a multi-skills centre.  Electricity supply to KwaDlangezwa.  Youth Centres in Hammarsdale.  But always where there is good intention, there are vultures hanging around to see what they can pick up.

I therefore propose that this House should take pride in those successful projects and we should boast that this is what we did for our poor communities at that time.  We must also take note and propose that those projects that are being investigated, this House should put pressure on the police to speedily conclude cases and perpetrators brought to book as a matter of urgency.  I thank you, Mr Speaker.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Nxumalo.  I now wish to give an opportunity to Mr Lowe.  Mr Lowe, you have two minutes.

MR C M LOWE:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  My hon colleague, Mr Nel, has already indicated that since 1994 some R350m has been made available to this Province for funding in one form of RDP or another.  Some has been lost, much has been wasted and much of that on consultants and their appointment, most has remained unspent.  And why is that?  Because once again, for the second time in a week, we have a litany of poor management, a lack of capacity and a complete and an utter disdain for accepting responsibility and for taking accountability.

A public hearing was held on 8 September.  It revealed a vague and unsatisfactory sequence of responses from the Director-General, one of which refers to the questions that I put regarding the signing of a cheque for R10m, a handwritten cheque, as to who signed that cheque, who authorised the vouchers and who signed the vouchers.  If you read the transcript, Mr Speaker, you will see once again there appears to be a lack of commitment to exposing the truth, to coming up with clear and direct responses to very clear and direct questions.

Clearly a lack of capacity is no excuse.  Why did the Director-General not bring these matters before the appropriate committee?  Where is the responsibility?  Where is the accountability?

Mr Speaker, I concur absolutely with the Chairman of the Public Accounts Committee.  The Public Accounts Committee has a special responsibility in this Province to account for public moneys.  We will get to the bottom of everything.  We will send out a clear message today.  We will be taken seriously, Mr Speaker.  We will leave no stone unturned to find out where the moneys were spent, how they were spent and who benefitted.  Thank you very much.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Lowe.  According to my list I have to be affording this opportunity to Minister Mabuyakhulu for 10 minutes, who will be followed by Mr Tarr for five minutes.  I, however, have been requested by the Minister of Transport to just indulge for a moment whilst he makes an intervention on a matter of public importance which was reported to us here, just availing further details.  Because of that, I have agreed to do that now before Minister Mabuyakhulu.  Okay, Minister Ndebele?

MR J S NDEBELE: (Minister of Transport):  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  It is a pity the Premier is not here, I do not think they forwarded the correct information to the Premier, but the details about the bus accident that happened at 07:30 in Margate, are as follows.

On Tuesday morning a passenger bus, transporting school children from Port Edward to Port Shepstone, apparently went out of control on a steep downhill and ploughed into two stationary cars after the brakes allegedly failed.  The bus came to rest after hitting a bridge.  The accident occurred at an intersection in Margate.  39 pupils were injured in the crash and were treated at a private hospital in Margate and discharged.  Four occupants from the two cars were also treated and subsequently discharged.  Five children were admitted overnight and discharged the following day.  A standard 8 female pupil was taken to Wentworth Hospital for specialised treatment for a fractured arm.  She is reported to be in a stable condition in hospital.

The children are from four different schools from the Port Shepstone area, namely Suid-Natal Horskool, Port Shepstone Senior Primary, Port Shepstone High and Marburgh Primary.  The driver of the bus has been charged for reckless and negligent driving as per South African SAPS Margate case No 36011/99.  The investigating officer is Inspector Benze.  The bus has been impounded and is presently undergoing a roadworthy check.  The bus belongs to Mr Christo Pretorius, operating under Port Shepstone Bus Service.

A list of the injured children will be faxed to this office by the investigating officer.  I am expecting that in the next 15 minutes.  Thank you.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Minister.

MR P M MILLER: (Minister of Finance):  May I just pose a question.  Are we then to understand that no children were killed?

MR J S NDEBELE: (Minister of Transport):  No-one has been killed.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Having dispensed with that, I will now allow Mr Mabuyakhulu to address the House for 10 minutes.  Mr Minister?

MR M MABUYAKHULU: (Minister of Economic Development and Tourism):  Thank you.  Mr Speaker, much has been said or written about the management and implementation of the RDP funds, in the public, in the committee meetings and in the media.  For example, on Tuesday 24 August 1999, an article titled: "R200m funding in a shambles", appeared in the KwaZulu-Natal Mercury.  This article, in one way or another, carried allegations that put the name and the integrity of the Department of Economic Development and Tourism in question.  There were two areas reflected in the said article, that need to be put into context.  These areas are also the same issues highlighted in the report of the Auditor-General, which is tabled before this House for debate today.

These two key areas are as follows:

	Firstly, the establishment of the KwaZulu-Natal RDP Education Trust, by my predecessor, the Minister of Economic Affairs and Tourism, the hon Mr J G Zuma, who is now the Deputy President; and the incurring of the R60,000 expenditure, before the Trust was officially registered.

	Secondly, the fact that R14m managed by the Department of Economic Affairs and Tourism, had not been spent during the audit period of 1996/1997 financial year.

With respect to the first issue, during the 1995/96 financial year, the Premier and Cabinet Ministers were each allocated R500,000, to identify and support community projects within their constituencies, using their discretion.  This allocation came from the Discretionary Fund, managed by the Office of the Director-General.

The Minister of Economic Affairs and Tourism, chose to establish a bursary fund to assist students from rural areas, who were experiencing financial problems in accessing education, both at primary and tertiary level.  The Department facilitated the establishment of the Steering Committee, comprising of practitioners from technikons and universities, the private sector and non-governmental organisations, which were mandated to establish an education trust fund.  The process of appointing the members of the board was finalised at the end of 1998.

In the business plan of the trust, which was approved by the board at its first meeting, the then Minister of Economic Affairs and Tourism, was given discretion on 10% of the total fund, to be able to respond to the pressing needs of students, who were always coming to him for assistance.  This was an interim measure, which the Minister was allowed to use, without operationally deviating from the objectives of the Bursary Fund.

It is important to mention that because of the nature of the communities we were dealing with, who could not afford to pay and claim back, a treasury authority was requested, and ultimately granted by the Department of Finance to pay project beneficiaries in advance, subject to the Department ensuring that all financial controls were in place.  And I have it, it was granted on 13 May 1997.

The expenditure which was incurred before the official registration of the Trust was reasonable and justifiable, by the mere fact that students needed money when schools opened in January and February 1998.  Nevertheless, it was always certain that the trust would be registered.  The memorandum of agreement was submitted by ABSA Trust to the Master of the High Court in December 1998, and the letter of authority to register the fund was secured on 17 June 1999, and it is available to the Public Accounts Committee for scrutiny.  The RDP Educational Trust fund is now up and running, and the administration of the fund is managed by ABSA Trust.

In the first year of its operation about 1,879 pupils, most of whom are orphans resulting from the past faction fighting in the Nkandla region, have been assisted through this fund.  These pupils would not have had access to primary education if the trust had not paid their school fees for January and February 1998.

On the second issue, I would like to contextualise the point that at the end of 1996/97 financial year, R14m had not been spent.

-	On the direction and guidance of the RDP Co-ordinating Committee, the RDP Chief Directorate had to prepare a business plan to access R14m from the National Department of State Expenditure.  This was a lengthy process of which the business plan was approved on 9 December 1996.

-	The business plan, having been approved by the RDP Co-ordinating Committee, requested that the implementation of projects funded from this allocation, (1996/97), be facilitated and managed by the Department of Economic Affairs and Tourism.  The documentation, delegating authority, was prepared and signed by the Director-General on 27 March 1997.

	This was three days before the expiry of the period covered by the Auditor-General's report, which is being discussed today.  Therefore, the Department of Economic Development and Tourism can only account for this funding, from 28 March 1997 to date, and all enquiries relating to the earlier period covered by the Auditor-General's report, should correctly be directed to the Office of the Director-General.

-	In order for the implementation process to start, and for the funds to flow into identified community projects, the RDP Chief Directorate had to seek Treasury authority, to be able to make transfer payments to approved projects.  This authority again was granted on 9 May 1997.  Procedurally, this meant that expenditure towards the implementation of the projects could not be incurred prior to 9 May 1997.

-	It must be noted that the RDP Chief Directorate played a critical role in reviving the operations of the RDP Co-ordinating Committee.  It provided the secretariat services and assisted in the appraising of projects, before they were tabled before the RDP Co-ordinating Committee.  All community projects, which received funding from the R14m allocation managed by the Department, have all been approved by the RDP Co-ordinating Committee.  All of these projects have established constitutions, business plans and progress reports.

In conclusion, I would like to reiterate the following points:

	Firstly, the former Minister of Economic Affairs and Tourism, was not the only Cabinet Minister to receive the R500,000 referred to above.  There were other Cabinet Ministers who utilized their allocation, at their discretion, for community projects.  The former Minister, made an important contribution, in choosing to establish a bursary fund to assist pupils from deep rural areas, who were struggling to access primary and tertiary education.  The Department understands that if this expenditure, in question, was not made at the beginning of the year 1998, many hundreds of pupils would have been deprived of an opportunity to attend school.  Therefore, the Department is proud of being associated with this noble project, which provides hope for the future to those that were denied educational opportunities through lack of finance.

	Secondly, at the moment the Department is running a clean administration in the management and implementation of Discretionary Funds for 1996/97.  All project applications from communities are acknowledged, and responded to in good time.  Unfortunately, the remaining funds have been committed to projects currently being completed, and we were unable to attend to the ever increasing list of projects that are actually coming our way.  In all these processes, the Department has established a much needed capacity to deal with community projects, particularly in rural areas, which is contrary to what some of the colleagues are saying that the situation is still being allowed to continue.  Officials, from the Office of the Auditor-General, have regularly visited the Department, and are given free access to project files.  They have been impressed by our filing system, and have found it easy to locate any file which they need for the purposes of auditing.  In short, all projects are locatable and there is nothing to hide.  The officials, from the Office of the Auditor-General, have suggested some minor areas that need tightening up.  Such suggestions are welcomed by the Department, which strives for continuous improvement.

	Lastly, more than 84% of the projects funded from the R14m allocation, which is managed by the Department, are complete.  It is estimated that the remaining 16% will be completed before the end of this financial year.  We have learnt quite a lot through the management and implementation of these community projects, where a small amount of money has been able to achieve a bigger impact at community level.

Indeed, this fund has demonstrated that we now have a different government that is able, not only to listen to what poor communities need, but also fund their projects, and allow them to be involved in the management and implementation of their own projects.  During this process we have observed innovative ideas, particularly from women, who have shown 100% commitment to their projects.

In conclusion, Mr Speaker, let me say as a Department, we fully believe that the RDP, in particular those projects that were managed by our Department, have made a difference in the lives of our people.  As I said earlier, I can only account for what my Department was able to manage.  Everything is open to my colleagues in the Public Accounts Committee to scrutinize each and every file in our possession.  I thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Minister.  I will now call on the hon member Mr Tarr to wind up the debate.  He has five minutes.

MR M A TARR:  I would like to thank you, sir, for allowing this debate to take place.  It is important, Mr Speaker, that portfolio committees, from time to time should be allowed to debate topical and even controversial issues which may be in front of them, in this House, in order to achieve the objective of public transparency and to air public issues like that.

Mr Speaker, just to respond very briefly to the hon Minister Mabuyakhulu who has just spoken, there never was a problem in the Pubic Accounts Committee regarding the two trusts that were established.  The two trusts were established for very good purposes and obviously purposes that everyone in the committee had no problem with.  The only problem with the two trusts was the proper registration of the trusts and the decisions which would then have been made subsequently by the trustees.

The Minister has explained to us what the money and the bursary money was spent for.  That already had been explained to the committee and there was no problem with that at all.  I hope that with the proper registration of these two trusts, this matter can now be put behind us.

What the Minister also says about the current administration of the RDP is quite correct.  The reports which we get is that everything is now running smoothly and of course, it points to the fact that the Minister's Department had the capacity, whereas the Director-General's Department lacked the capacity to do this.

Mr Speaker, I am very concerned that we, today should not send the wrong message out into the world.  The first thing I would like to point out, there is no evidence whatsoever before the committee that there has been any theft, or anything illegal done.  I want to make that quite clear.  There are matters that have been handed over to the police.  I am not aware of any police investigation that has been finalised and brought to our attention, certainly not to the Public Accounts Committee.  I would like to make it absolutely clear in this House today, for anyone in the press who may be listening, as we stand here today, there is absolutely no evidence of any theft or dishonesty of any nature.

What has, however, come out is that with the implementation of the RDP programme, there was pressure to deliver fast.  This was a responsibility which was entrusted to people who had lacked the capacity to do the job in terms of the manpower in their departments and unfortunately then the whole series of sorry events followed, which we have discussed here in this committee today.  I hope that as time goes by, we will be able to resolve the various outstanding issues and report back to this House that they have now been satisfactorily resolved.

Mr Speaker, I would like to thank everyone who took part in the debate, especially my committee members.  Then, it finally remains for me to move for the adoption of the report, which the Public Accounts Committee tabled in this House.  However, Mr Speaker, it has been suggested that I should also move a short amendment to the report.  This has been agreed to amongst all the parties in the House.  In addition to the report, when the section dealing with the KwaZulu-Natal Discretionary Fund, to add a fourth section. Now what is in the fourth section, I am now going to read out.  It has already been stated in this House, it is actually implicit in the report itself, but perhaps just to cross the 't's' and dot the 'i's', it is worthwhile to add the fourth section.  Section 4 says the following:

	That none of the above matters be regarded as closed, nor any unauthorised expenditure be authorised, until such time as the Legislature receives a full and acceptable explanation in response to all outstanding matters.

That really relates to the police investigation, the 39 dockets that have been handed over.  Mr Speaker, I would like to move for the adoption of the report.  Thank you.

THE REPORT OF THE PUBLIC ACCOUNTS STANDING COMMITTEE AS TABLED BY MR M A TARR ON 2 NOVEMBER, AS AMENDED, IS AGREED TO.

THE RESOLUTIONS NOW READ AS FOLLOWS:

	4.1.1		Resolution of the Public Accounts Standing Committee dealing with the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements of vote 15 - Reconstruction and Development Programme of the Provincial Administration of KwaZulu-Natal for the 1996/97 Financial year.

	4.1.2		Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements of vote 14 - Works of the Provincial Administration of KwaZulu-Natal for 1996-97 [PR:79/1999].

	4.1.3		Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements of vote 6 - Financial and Auxiliary Services of the Provincial Administration of KwaZulu-Natal for 1996-97 [PR 81/1999].

	4.1.4		That none of the above matters be regarded as closed, nor any unauthorised expenditure be authorised, until such time as the Legislature receives a full and acceptable explanation in response to all outstanding matters.

THE SPEAKER:  Before we adjourn, I would like to give this opportunity to the Premier, who requested that he would like to make an announcement.  Thank you.

THE PREMIER:  Mr Speaker and hon members, I would like to convey my appreciation to my Cabinet colleagues, the Minister of Transport and the Minister of Education on the announcement we made earlier during the day.  We praise the Lord that there were no fatalities in the Margate bus accident.  Thank you.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  Before we adjourn for lunch I would like to remind the members that we will attend the march and we will resume our business at 14:00.

MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):  Mr Speaker, when we proceed to Freedom Square, I would like to suggest that it would be proper if we do not go in dribs and drabs, but that we actually proceed as a Legislature in procession in a very dignified manner, led by yourself and the Deputy Speaker and then of course our other Ministers and so on.  Otherwise I think it will lose some of its impact if we just arrive as individuals.

THE SPEAKER:  I think that all of us are happy with that arrangement.  Thank you.  Ayi, ayi, ilungu elihloniphekile uNgcobo laqala ukuligxoba.  [UHLEKO]  Indlu iyaguqa sisoze sibuyele ngo-two ntambama.   [No, no, the hon member Ngcobo is used to doing it.  [LAUGHTER]  The House adjourns, we will return again at 2 o'clock in the afternoon].  Thank you.

	HOUSE ADJOURNED AT 11:41
	HOUSE RESUMED AT 14:31

THE SPEAKER:  Item 8.2 on the Order Paper.

8.2	DEBATE ON THE REPORT BY THE MINISTER OF SOCIAL WELFARE AND POPULATION DEVELOPMENT IN TERMS OF RULE (9)3.

THE SPEAKER:  To start the debate, I will now call upon the hon member Miss Nahara, who has got eight minutes.

MISS F M NAHARA:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  I would like to congratulate the Minister of Social Welfare and Population Development and his Department for tabling this report, which is an update for the members of Parliament.

I also would like to thank the Programme sub-Committee, for planning this programme for us in this Legislature whereby the MEC's are tabling their reports and the members having the benefit of debating some of these reports.

I am not saying that the MEC's in the past did not report to us, but mainly it used to be presented during the budget debate, and it was mainly based on the allocation of the budget.  This time at least we are able to make comments and make contributions where we can as members of this Legislature.  This is one programme that will empower us, as members of this Legislature, to know what the different departments are doing and whereby we will be able to contribute, or to talk about what this government is doing, having been informed.

Coming back to the report presented here by our MEC, the report really deals with what has been done and so on, but I would like just to make a few comments on the allocation to the pensioners and the recent Child Support Grant.

The report indicates how the re-registration has helped to identify some of the ghost pensioners and other people who are benefitting from this grant, people who did not deserve it.  It has also helped the Department to recover some of the monies that were going to the wrong people.  However, the re-registration process was not without side effects or problems.  I will just indicate a few.

As a Portfolio Committee of Social Welfare, we were really unhappy when the process of the re-registration did not take us on board.  The entire process began and we were not properly informed or briefed by the Department or the body that was actually dealing with this process.  As a result, some of us were unable to brief people in our constituency offices, or within our constituencies.  We could have played a role in encouraging such people to go for re-registration and explaining the benefits of such a process.

This resulted in people in some areas being reluctant to register because of politics that were used by some people around it to say: "Do not re-register because the government is going to take away your pension, because if you have got two cows at your house, that will be taken into account and the pension will be taken away".  Such incidents did occur, Mr Speaker, and it did discourage some of our people from registering.

THE SPEAKER:  The hon member is left with 30 seconds.

MISS F M NAHARA:  Thank you, sir.  Nevertheless, the re-registration did take place.  We were able to encourage our people to go out and re-register.  But the results, again, there were 13 million people whose applications were turned down.  Amongst these, there were people who did not deserve pensions but there were also people whose applications were turned down, not because of their fault, but through the fault of Home Affairs who made mistakes such as reflecting incorrect ages or dates of birth, and spelling names incorrectly.

THE SPEAKER:  The hon member's time is up.

MISS F M NAHARA:  Mr Speaker, I would like to ask the Department to look into these issues.  I will submit to the portfolio committee the necessary documentation.  Thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  I now call upon the hon member Mr Ngema, who has got six minutes.

MR M V NGEMA:  I thank you, hon Speaker.  The hon Minister is complimented on the detailed report presented to Parliament on Tuesday, 23 November.

After listening to what was reported, I was convinced that this was work well done despite the difficulties of not having adequate resources.  I am convinced that my colleagues in this Parliament will agree with me in this regard.

However, I did consult the report afterwards and was alarmed by the apparent level of corruption taking place in the Department.  I agree with the hon Minister's remarks that corruption is not unique in this Department, but rather generic in the public service.  What concerned me was the obvious delays in terminating the services of those officials found to be corrupt.  I think, as parliamentarians, we need to address this.

My concern was further highlighted by various questions that were raised the previous day.  My assumptions indicate that the Department does not have the appropriate resources to deal with labour relations matters.  If they are there, they are not sufficient.  I would therefore plead with the Department to do everything possible to create a labour relations component if it does not exist, or to fill posts speedily if it does exist.

Somewhere in the report, Mr Speaker, hon members, I gathered that the staff complement is a problem.  I agree with the Minister as we have experienced during visits by the portfolio committee to various regions of the Department.  Government and this Parliament is concerned about the high personnel-related expenditure in South Africa.  Although we all agree that this is an expenditure we need to curb, I invite the Finance Department, especially Treasury, to assist the Department of Welfare in funding critical posts needed in service delivery.

The report was elaborate and I was pleased to note the good progress made in terms of pension re-registration and the fact that this Province will be the first province to pay pensions through a Smart Card system in the not too distant future.  The Minister is complimented on this.  The Department was fighting a war against corruption, and as is usual in wars, there are casualties which in fact no-one wants to have.  I request the Department to pay urgent attention to those innocent victims who were struck off the system due to many reasons advanced.

With regard to poverty alleviation programmes, as Parliament, we need to see that poverty is eradicated and that suffering is minimised.  The progress recorded in the report, indicate that we are indeed definitely moving towards eradicating this scourge facing our people.  However, we need to be briefed on the control mechanisms in place to check recipients of State funding with regard to misappropriation of these funds.

Hon Speaker and members present, the hon Prince, the Minister, has done sterling work in his Department.  I thank you, Mr Speaker.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  I thank you also for saving time.  I will now call upon the hon member Mr Keys, who has got six minutes.

MR R E KEYS:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  The report by the Minister reveals some most encouraging achievements by his Department and he must be commended for the successes he has achieved to date.  His Department has had to redirect the resources available to this Province to assist those forgotten and consciously ignored by the previous NP Government.

There are a number of points, however, that need to be made regarding the Minister's report.

First, the report is littered with so-called "challenges" and goals, without too much detail.  The public deserves a more detailed account of achievements and the cost implications of his Department.

Secondly, of importance is what the Minister did not address, and Mr Speaker, I want to raise just two that come to mind.

The Minister deals with the Child Support Grant.  This amount is a paltry R100 a month per child under the age of seven.  What happens to these children once they reach the age of seven?  The State has unilaterally abandoned all children of school-going age, with a few exceptions of the physically or mentally challenged.  There is no support for the children by this government after they reach the age of seven.

Considering that the Minister has recognised the disaster of AIDS, his report in no way can be considered as adequately addressing the crisis.  The AIDS orphans have no-one to support them.  The extended families' resources are stretched to breaking point and they cannot maintain any meaningful support level for the AIDS orphans.

What is the response of the Minister?  To run a pilot project, according to the report.  This is simply not good enough.  Surely the Department of Welfare recognises the enormity of the crisis facing the country, and in particular this Province, which has arguably the highest rate of infection in Africa per capita.

No, Mr Speaker, the measures taken mentioned in the report to this House are totally inadequate.  The Ministry must, as a matter of urgency, design a plan to meet this crisis head on and budget the resources to adequately deal with it.

A second matter which I would like to address, relates to people on the other end of the age spectrum.  The Minister reported on the re-registration of pensioners and Mr Ngema referred to it earlier, but Mr Speaker, in this process the elderly were treated with disrespect and with disdain.  At centres where re-registrations were carried out, insufficient seating was available, toilet facilities inadequate and absolutely no medical resources available for the elderly.

I believe the Ministry owes an apology to our elderly citizens for the discomfort they were forced to endure.  Indeed, what they received was a slap in the face for a lifetime of service to our country.

Also, Mr Speaker, on the matter of the elderly.  The Minister does not address the unconstitutional practice engaged in by his Department and indeed by the Welfare Department of the National Government.  I here refer to the prejudice against men.  Men in South Africa receive pensions when they reach the age of 65, while women at the age of 60 become eligible for social pensions.  This discrimination has persisted since the inception of the interim constitution and continues despite the final constitution, confirming that discrimination based on sex is unconstitutional.  This must be resolved as a matter or urgency.

Finally, Mr Speaker, the Minister's report to this House does not instil confidence in me in respect of the monitoring ability of the Department over the projects and programmes it subsidises, and also the reconciliation of funds expended with the tangible results achieved.  It is high time that these monitoring systems are put in place and regular reports of their successes or otherwise are brought before this House.  I thank you, Mr Speaker.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  I will now call upon the hon member Mr Mkhize unemizuzu eyisithupha.  [Mr Mkhize you have six minutes].

MR S MKHIZE:  Ngiyabonga Baba Somlomo neNdlu yakho.  Ngithanda ukuthi ngibonge mayelana nalombiko okuthe uMntwana wasithulela wona, siyathokoza.

Okukhulu engithanda ukuthi ngikubeke nje mayelana nalombiko othe wavela nokunye esingase sikucwaninge kulokhu.  Kusanezikhalazo ezikhona ezisasele ezisafanele ukuthi zilungiswe.  Njengokuthi njena uma umuntu omdala lona eyohola impesheni kwenze kwesinye isikhathi ivaleke kuye kumthathe umzukuzuku, kube nesikhathi  eside ukuthi ibuye ivuleke abuye agqigqe laphana kube isikhathi eside egqigqa ingavuleki.  Kusezinye zezikhalazo ezisekhona phakathi kwemiphakathi.

Kwesinye isikhathi badlale bona labantu abasebenza ezimpeshenini babagqigqise laphana kuphele isikhathi eside bengayitholi imali.

Kokunye okubalulekileyo ikakhulu ezindaweni zethu kusekhona lokhu Ngqongqoshe ukuthi abantu abahola imali babe nenkinga lena yokuvuka ebusuku eyoma ulayini umuntu omdala nokuthi nomangabe izulu liyana noma liyashisa noma kunjani bama lapha kuze kube sebusuku.  Kusezinye zezinto bekungakuhle ukuthi umnyango lona kaNgqongqoshe uMntwana akubheke lokho.  Ngoba kusezinye zezinto ezisawukhathaza umphakathi.

Okunye okuvukayo la sengazukuthi nabasebenzi laba abasebenza ekutholeni yona imali lena abawenzi kahle umsebenzi ngendlela egculisayo.  Ezinye zezinto ezikhathazayo lezo.

Eminye yemindeni yokuthi umuntu omdala ngesinye isikhathi uyena ofaka isaka ekhaya uthole ukuthi ngokuvaleka kwayo imali uthole ukuthi akusayi lutho eziko.

Mayelana nezingane lezi okuthiwa kufanele zithole imali zigcine eminyakeni eyisikhombisa kuye kubekhona imindeni lapho okungekho noyedwa osebenzayo besekusweleka ukuthi lezozingane zizophiwani, zizodlani, kuzokwenzeka kanjani kulowomuzi.  Lowomuzi ufana nocishiwe, nomuzu ovalekileyo, ngoba akukho okungase kubasize.

Ngapha ezansi lapho esiqhamuka ngakhona kunezindawo abantu sebegqigqe isikhathi eside bethenjiswe ukuthi bazothola imali yempesheni.  Abanye baze badlale wona amaqola lawa ababhalise abakhokhise izimali athi azobatholela izimpesheni.  Ngakhoke esinye sesikhalo lesi esisibhekise emnyangweni ukuthi bekungekhona yini ukuthi kubekhona iso.

Ngiyazi ukuthi konke lokhu Ungqongqoshe ngeke akwazi ukukuthola konke lokhu engikhuluma ngakho kodwa kuyinto ekhona emphakathini esenzeka.

Mayelana nabantwana laba abangasitholi kahle isondlo ngibona sengathi ezinye zezinto ezenza ukuthi batholakale sebehlala emgwaqeni sebengabantwana abangekho emakhaya. ngoba isondlo sabo sisuke singekho kahle-hle.

Okunye abazali kunemizi lapha eyondliwa ogogo nomkhulu abazali abangazithinti, abangekho ngisho nokubabikho eduzane, ize ingane igcine seyize yangena ezintweni lezi esizibonayo njengezidakamizwa nazozonke izinto ezifana nalezo kube kuyingane encane.  Ngoba isimo esikhulu kakhulu indlala.

Besikubhekisa kuMntwana ukuthi mayelana nalokhu ukuthi bengeke akubhekele yini kanye ne-Department yakhe lokhu akubhekele ngeso elibanzi.

Ngakhoke siyakucela ukuthi siyazi ukuthi amehlo kaHulumeni nomphakathi angaba usizo kulokhu.  Ngakho siyacela ukuthi kube into leyo okubhekisiswana nayo.  Uma ubona ngesinye isikhathi ukuthi ngakini kwenzeka into efana nalena ngoba ayizwakali kahle, izwakala iyinto elulazayo, ephoxa uHulumeni wethu.

Ngakhoke siyacela mayelana nombiko lona siwubonga kakhulu ukuthi kulungiswa lapha nalapha mayelana nezinto ezenzakalayo.  Siyacela ukuthi kube into lena engathi ukufakelwa kancane izibuko.  Sibone ukuthi ikhambi lini esingahlangabezana nalo mayelana nalokhu okwenzakalayo, sikucwaninge kahlehle.

THE SPEAKER:  Ilunga selisalelwe umzuzu owodwa.  [The hon member is left with one more minute].

MR S MKHIZE:  Okunye okubalulekileyo okungeze kwasala kulokhu engizokubeka ukuthi okunye ebesingakucela kuHulumeni nakwikomiti eliphathelene nalokhu ukuthi likubukisise kahle-hle isimo sona lesi sokuthi abantu badlala amaqola yonke indawo - ezikhungweni lapho kuholwa khona izimpesheni kusenakho ukuqola nokukhwabanisa okuningi okwenzakalayo.

Basekhona labobantu abarobha abanye abantu mayelana nendaba yempesheni, basebaningi kakhulu abantu abayifa kwabanye abantu mayelana nesimo sempesheni sisonke.  Ngiyathokoza.

TRANSLATION:  Thank you, Mr Speaker, and your House.  I want to express my gratitude in connection with this report that the Prince has presented to us.  We are grateful for it.

The main thing that I would like to say about this report that has been presented, and something else that I would like to highlight from this, there are still complaints left that we need to rectify.  Such as: when an old people go to collect their pension, it sometimes happens that the pension is discontinued.  It becomes a great battle and takes a long time for the pension to be paid again.  The pensioners then finds themselves in a situation where they have to go backwards and forwards for a long time before the pension is restored.  This is one of the complaints that the community still has.

Sometimes the fault lies with the very people that are employed to pay out the pensions.  They cause the old people to go up and down and a long time elapses before they receive the money.

Another thing that is important, especially in our areas, Mr Minister, is that the pensioners have the problem of having to get up very early in the morning while it is still dark and go and stand in long queues.  Old people have to go and stand in long queues irrespective of whether the weather is hot or whether it is raining, or whatever the weather may be doing.  They stand in long queues until after sunset.  This is still one of the things that it would be appreciated very much if the Department and the Minister's Department, the Prince's Department could look into this.  Because this is one of the things which still bothers the community very much.

One other thing which arises from this, I gain the impression that the staff who are employed to pay out the pensions do not do their work in a satisfactory manner.  This is one of the things which bothers us.

In some families you find that the pensioner is the only person who buys food for the home, and when you find that the pension has been discontinued a situation arises that there is no food to eat.

In regard to these children, to whom it is said money should be paid, these are the children who are younger than seven up to the age of seven.  There are families where not one person in the family is working.  In such a situation one finds that those children cannot be given any food.  What are they going to eat?  How are the members of that particular family going to survive?  In such a family, you might as well say that that household does not exist.  It is as if that home has been closed up, because there is nothing that can be of any assistance to them.

In this direction down south which is the direction from which I come, there are places where people have been going backwards and forwards for a long time.  Promises have been made that they will receive pensions.  Others eventually fall victim to unscrupulous officials who bribe them with promises that they will secure them pensions.  That is why I am saying this is one of the complaints which we would direct to the Department, and we would suggest that some sort of plan of action be put into place.

I am aware that the Minister will not be able to attend at once to all these things I have referred to, but these are the things which exist in the community, these are things which are actually happening.

In regard to the children who are not receiving sufficient support, it is my view that the lack of support is one of the reasons that you find children living on the streets, that you find children that are no longer living at home, because these children are not being properly supported at home.

Another problem is that there are certain instances where the burden of support falls squarely on the shoulders of grandmother and grandfather, where the parents of the children are not involved at all, where the parents of the children do not even live close by.  Eventually these children get involved in these things which we see, such as the abuse of drugs and all other like mannered things, and you find that it is even small children that are involved in these things.  The main reason for this is hunger.

We would appeal to the Prince in relation to what I have just mentioned, and ask whether it would not be possible for him, together with his Department, to take a very serious look at the situation.

Therefore, we are requesting that even though we know that we need the support of the government, and also the support of the community in this thing.  That is why we are asking that this should be something that we should all become involved in.  If you see a certain incident in your area, and you see something happening similar to this, because this does not reflect well, in fact it is something which brings shame upon us, it brings shame upon our government.

So, we are requesting that in connection with this report for which we are very grateful, that certain things that we see happening should be rectified.  We request that this should be something which should be carefully looked into, in order to see what solution we could bring forward in regard to this which is happening before us.  We should examine the situation carefully.

Something else which is important, which I dare not leave out, and which I want to mention, and something else that we would like to request the government and also request the Committee which has got to do with this issue, is that this issue should be carefully examined.  The issue I am referring to is the issue of people who take advantage of other people all over the place - at the paypoints where the pensions are paid out there are a lot of people who take advantage of other people, a lot of corruption and fraud takes place.

These people are still there and they are people who take advantage of other people regarding the issue of pensions.  There are still many people who exploit other people in regard to the issue of pensions as a whole.  Thank you.  T/E

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  I will now call upon the hon member Miss Thakur, for five minutes.

MISS S THAKUR:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  I want to thank the hon Minister for his address on the progress being made in the Department of Social Welfare, which is certainly not an easy Department to manage.

My area of concern is care for the disabled, substance abuse individuals and the elderly.

I want to commend the Provincial Task Team on Disability which is making great strides in this area of challenge to ensure that the disabled are fully integrated into the community because they have been stigmatised for far too long, further aggravated by the tremendous lack of facilities in the past.

This feeling sadly still persists among poor, illiterate people, hence our Department needs to create more outreach programmes to assist such people.

With regards to care for the elderly and substance abuse patients, we need to create more rehabilitation centres with more facilities than those that are currently being offered by the NGO's, that rely heavily on the private sector for funding.  I know the Department is going to report to the portfolio committee with regards to these, but I will nonetheless expand on my concerns.

We need to get co-operation from big businesses.  I do know that big business invest a lot when it comes to women and children, but the elderly and disabled also need a fair share of such contribution and efforts.

I was very happy to read that there is a division called Emmanuel's Disability Appointments, that has been created.  This has been done to offer disabled people an opportunity to find meaningful employment.

The Employment Equity Bill really requires companies to reappraise the employment of people with disabilities, and hopefully, Emmanuel's Disability Appointments should bridge this gap.

The main thrust of my speech is to emphasize that for disabled persons to become self-supportive, they need to gain professional skills and this will be a major step for them.

Hence, for the disabled, the most important aspect is equality in educational opportunities, in order to merge with society and earn a living.  We need to increase the number of special schools, for example, for the blind, for the deaf and for children with various mental problems, especially in the rural areas.

Vocational, secondary and tertiary institutions for adults also need to be increased.

As I mentioned before, the White Paper on the Integrated National Disability Strategy has to be fast-tracked.

I once again emphasize the need for disability prevention efforts and for rehabilitative training, for example, after undergoing special surgery, so that these people can support themselves by their own labour after rehabilitation.  Not to mention their wide opportunities to participate in major international sports competitions.

In conclusion, if these are considered, then only can our disabled persons escape poverty and together with the elderly, have a better quality of life.  Thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  I will now call upon hon member Miss Xulu, who has got seven minutes.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

MISS M XULU:  Thank you, Mr Speaker, members of the Legislature, I rise to compliment the hon Minister on his insightful and thought-provoking report.  There is no doubt that the Department of Social Welfare and Pensions has come a long way, considering the number of problems, especially in relation to fraud and corruption.  I am also proud that the Department has launched a strategic plan to beat poverty.  Hon Minister, we applaud you for this initiative.  We know that in KwaZulu-Natal, we have the poorest of the poor.  Yet, I am also reminded that we need dedicated people who are motivated and focused.  I believe that the principles of Batho Pele should apply here.

Staff at all levels need to commit themselves.  I just want to add that the staff should not just commit themselves, but practice it.  We are tired of having buzz words, these merely become words without meaning.  We know that for many years, fraud and corruption cost our Department dearly.  This has further impacted on the lives of our most vulnerable, the aged, the poor, disabled, women and children.

The second issue, Mr Speaker, is that of taking Social Security Services closer to the people.  We, as members of the portfolio committee, need to constantly ensure that services are brought closer to the people.  But we know that this is no easy task, as the Department is constantly faced with a lack of vehicles and financial constraints.  On the subject of finance, I would like to thank the Minister who plans to save R52m by suspending non-qualifying benefactors.  Our hon Minister also stated that his Department aims to reach 186,000 children with its newly formed Child Support Grant.

We also know that problems persist in the Department.  Some of the major problems facing the Department are the plight of street children, the plight of AIDS orphans, as we as a Province continue to be the worst hit region in the country.  Other problems include shelters for abused women.  It is high time, Mr Speaker, to take the bull by the horns and ensure that we secure more funding in KwaZulu-Natal.  Let us go forward, Mr Speaker, to ensure that the vulnerable people are not neglected.  Once again, I thank the hon Minister for his sterling work, he can be assured that he will always receive support from all of us.

Mr Speaker, there is one daunting problem that concerns me.  This is the increase in child rape and sexual abuse amongst children.  I know that not one family is immune to this, as I read recently of an incident of a Hindu priest who sexually molested seven children.  After the trial he left scott free.  Mr Speaker, our justice system is failing us.  Child abusers are getting off the hook.  Also, I read an article about a two year old toddler who was raped by a teenager.  What is our society becoming?  This is really traumatic, having tragic consequences on those who are abused.  Yet, we need shelters to help these children and even women.  This really concerns me.

The problem of dysfunctional families.  I believe that this is escalating in South Africa as a whole.  Today, we have more single parent families.  This places an additional burden on the lives of single women.

The second problem is unemployment.  This not only causes a severe strain on the economy, but on the family.  I really feel for these families, as some of them cannot even place food on the table.  As a result, more often than not, the youth in these families begin to resort to crime as an easy way out of a difficult situation.

The end result is more juvenile delinquents, this means additional strain on safety and security ...

THE SPEAKER:  The hon member is left with a minute.  Umzuzu owodwa.  [One minute left].

MISS M XULU:  Hon members, we know that domestic violence is a serious problem.  I know that because of budgetary cuts and lack of adequate resources, the Department is in difficulty in trying to find appropriate solutions, such as more counselling groups, more self-support groups and more shelters to help these women.

Ekugcineni Mr Speaker, angibonge ikomiti lethu esisebenza nalo ngokuthula nokubambisana nangokuthi sihambela izindawo eziningi ikakhulukazi njengoba kade kunetha izimvula.  

Sihambile saya kobona abantu abakhukhulwe izikhukhula zamanzi, lokhu sikwenza ngokubambisana singafakanga ipolitiki phakathi.  Bengicela sengathi kungaqhubeka sisebenze njengoba sibambisene.  Ngiyathokoza.

TRANSLATION:  Lastly, Mr Speaker, I want to express my thanks to our Committee with which we work peacefully, we work in harmony, we assist each other.  We went to these places, many places, especially after the rains, we went to the places where people have been devastated by water and floods.  We did everything that we did in harmony.  We assisted each other.  We did not allow politics to enter the situation.  We did not politicise the situation.  I would request that we should continue in this vein and work in this vein as we are working as one.  Thank you.  T/E

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

THE SPEAKER:  I will now call upon the hon member N P Molefe, who has got five minutes.

MRS N P MOLEFE:  Mhlonishwa Baba Somlomo neNdlu yakho yabaHlonishwa futhi ehloniphekileyo.

Uzwakele umbiko kaBaba uNgqongqoshe.  UMhlonishwa ukhulume ngeNanda Service Centre mina njengomhlali waseNanda futhi njengolusha lakhona lokho sasikubiza nge-IMC ngalesosikhathi okwakusebenza ngaso.  Uxhaso olwalukhona kwakuyizimali ezazivela kuHulumeni omkhulu.  Inhloso yakho kwakungukusiza abantwana abavela emajele nalabo asebehambe isikhathi eside emakhaya besizwa ukuba basimamise izimilo zabo.

ENanda kunehovisi elilodwa eliseNanda Newtown A elibhekene nomphakathi waseNanda owu 1,13m okungumphakathi waseNanda Mission, uMzinyathi, Osindisweni, Etafuleni, naseNanda eMaoti iyonke.

Izolo kufike umyalezo othi kunabantu abawu-15 abaxoshiwe kulelihovisi ngenxa yokushoda kwabasenzi bakhona.  Abasebenzi abakhona bane kuphela.  Izimoto zokuhamba abanazo, i-computer yokusebenza abanayo.  Baxoshelwe ukuthi abasebenzi abane baye kwi-study leave, umsebenzi obekhona ubeyedwa kuphela uthe kulabobantu abobuya ngo-March ngonyaka ka-2000.

Kunelokishi labomdabu waseNdiya elakhelene neNanda osoNhlalakahle bakhona lapho e-Phoenix bayishumi nambili, izimoto zimbili, kunomabhalane abahlale bekhona kusona sonke isikhathi samahora okusebenza.  Baphekene nomphakathi omcane kakhulu kunowaseNanda.

KwaDukuza nakwaMaphumulo osoNhlalakahle bakulendawo bane kuphela izimoto zimbili abazisebenzisayo, ama-computer abanawo. Umphakathi walendawo wakhishwa kuloluhlelo okuthiwa uXoshindlala kwathiwa awubafanele isimo sakhona sihle impela.

Eminyakeni emibili kwabakhona into eyayibizwa ngokuthi i-Social Relief for Indian only eyayibhekene nabaseNdiya kuphela.  Kunamanje leyonto isaqhubeka kodwa abaMnyama bakithi abasizwa ngalutho.

Izolo bekungcwatshwa ingane eneminyaka ewu-eight ishayiswe imoto echitha udoti phakathi kwemizi.  Osonhlalakahle abakaze bayoyivakashela lendawo.

Kunobufakazi obusemaphoyiseni akhona kwaDukuza ukuthi sekunezidumbu ezine zezingane ezitholakala emgqonyeni kadoti lapho abantu abacosha khona badle umphakathi wakwaDukuza.  Konke ukudla abakudlayo bakucosha lapho.

Nginxusa lezizinto ezilandelayo kuNgqongqoshe nekomiti ukuthi bazibheke.

*	Ukuthunyelwa kabusha koSonhlalakahle ezindaweni zonke i-redeployment.
*	Kubhekisiswe izindawo ngezidingo zazo nalezo ezidinga ukuba zifakwe kuloluhlelo lukaXoshindlala ikakhulu kelendawo okuthi wa ise-Port Shepstone.

THE SPEAKER:  Ilungu lisalelwe umzuzu owodwa.  [The hon member has one more minute].

MRS M P MOLEFE:  
*	Kuvalwe izikhala zalabo basebenzi uma bengekho ngokushesha.
*	Kufakwe uhlelo lwe-IMC kuzona zonke izindawo, lufakwe futhi nasohlelweni lwezimali.
*	Ama-Regional Offices nabasebenzi bakhona bavakashele ama-District.
*	Kube impoqo kubobonke oSonhlalakahle ukuba bafunde ukhuluma zonke izilimi ikakhulu lolu engilikhulumayo.
*	Umnyango ulungise futhi uvule ithuba lokubhalisa kabusha kwabantu abadala laba abahola impesheni nabakhubazekile.
*	Kuthunyelwe oDokotela bakaHulumeni ama-District Surgeons kuwowonke ama-district khathi abantu abafuna ukuthola izimpesheni basheshe bahlolelwe ukuthi kubalungele yini.  Ngiyabonga Baba Somlomo.

TRANSLATION:  Mr Speaker, and your hon House, I am grateful to get this opportunity to speak to hon members in this hon House.  I heard the report of the hon Minister.  The hon Minister spoke about the Inanda Service Centre.  I, as a resident of Inanda, and also as a member of the youth of Inanda, we used to refer to it as the IMC at that time when it was in operation.  The assistance which we received was money which we received from the National Government.  The aim of this was to assist the children who came from gaol, and also those who had been away from their homes for a long time.  These people were assisted in regard to their careers.

In Inanda there is only one office which is situated at Inanda Newtown A, which serves the community of Inanda which comprises of 1,13 million people.  It comprises the community of Inanda Mission, Mzinyathi, Osindisweni, Etafuleni, also Inanda and the whole of Maoti.

Yesterday a report was received that there were 15 people that were chased away from this office because of a shortage of workers in that office.  There are only four employees in that office.  They do not have vehicles, they do not have a computer to use.  The people were chased away because the four employees had gone on study leave.  There was only one employee there.  This person said to these people that they should return in March of the year 2000.

There is an Indian township which borders on Inanda.  In this township of Phoenix there are 12 social workers, there are two motor vehicles, there are clerks that are available at all times, that is during all working hours.  These people serve a far smaller community than the community of Inanda.

In the areas of KwaDukuza and KwaMaphumulo there are only four social workers to serve this area.  They have two motor vehicles which they use, they do not have computers.  The people from this area were taken off the programme, which is a programme to combat hunger, because it was said they do not qualify for the programme because the situation in which they lived was very good.

For two years there was something which was called "social relief for Indians only".  This programme was for Indians only.  As we speak now, this situation still prevails, but our black people are not assisted in any way.

Yesterday was the funeral of a child of eight years, who was struck by a motor vehicle that collects refuse from the houses.  The social workers did not visit this area.

There is evidence with the police at KwaDukuza that there are four bodies of children that have been found in the rubbish bins where some people rummage for food.  These are people who belong to the community of KwaDukuza.  All the food they eat they pick up from there.  I am requesting the following from the Minister and the Committee, I am requesting them that they should look into the following:

*	I am requesting firstly, the redeployment of all social workers.  
*	Secondly, the whole issue about which areas should be included in the programme to combat hunger should be revisited, especially the Port Shepstone area. 
*	That if the posts for these workers or employees do exist, that they should be employed speedily.  
*	That there should be a programme of IMC in all the areas. 
*	That provision should be made in the budget for this programme.  
*	That people employed at regional office level should visit the districts.  *	That it should be compulsory for all social workers that they should learn to speak all languages, particularly the language that I am speaking.  
*	That the Department should make provision for, and an opportunity for the re-registration of the elderly people who should receive pensions and also the disabled.  
*	That doctors who are in the employ of the government, that is the district surgeons, should be sent to all the districts so that the people who have applied for pensions should be told speedily whether they qualify or not.  

Thank you, Mr Speaker.  T/E

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

THE SPEAKER:  Siyabonga.  I will now call upon hon member Mrs Ambler-Moore, who has got three minutes.

MRS M AMBLER-MOORE:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  I would like to thank the Minister for a very extensive report.  It was a good mid-year report and helped to focus our minds.

The Welfare Committee recently started a series of visits to the Welfare offices.  The decision was taken to start with the Ulundi regional office and we had a good tour of the first floor of the admin building in Ulundi where the office is and I thank the staff.

Mr Minister and Mr Speaker, I do not think any of us like being negative, but to say I was astounded at what I saw is an understatement.  Just rows and rows of people, yet when I write, my letters are not answered.  When I phone it takes forever for anyone to answer and many times my calls are not returned.  When I want information, it is not available.  It is not just me, Mr Speaker, I receive endless complaints from members of the public.  People apply for disability or old age pensions and months go by and they hear nothing.  I have one case of a severely handicapped youngster whose pension stopped when he was 16, much confusion. Later, he was told he could only apply for another one when he was 18 - wrong information.  Any way, he applied in April, seven months ago, silence, he has heard nothing.

We visited the typing pool and I saw a typewriter.  I had not seen one for a long time.  Why was the employee not using a computer?  Well, it had been stolen because it had "sensitive information on it".

I will not go into the cars, or the state of the cars in that Department.

On page 6 in his report, the Minister referred to corruption and I will not go into the details, except to say 91 court cases are outstanding.  I know there are people doing their best to root out corruption.  Some of our employees are doing this full time, but I ask, is it enough?  I ask, because in many cases this is seriously affecting delivery.  In reply to a question I asked yesterday, the Minister indicated that some of the offices are not operating as well as they could because of lack of staff due to suspensions.

Our Welfare computer is linked to the national mainframe and it was very disturbing to read in the report that in a five-week period there was a total of eleven-and-a-half hours down-time.

THE SPEAKER:  The hon member is left with a minute.

MRS M AMBLER-MOORE:  There is no doubt this is affecting delivery.

Mr Speaker, I am highlighting what is wrong, not to score cheap political points, but to express people's concerns.  We need to develop a sense of urgency, caring and a stronger desire to serve our communities.

In conclusion, Mr Speaker, there were two very interesting statements given yesterday.  The Minister of Agriculture quoted the Premier saying that if we want to make a difference, we have to change our mind-set.  The Minister of Education said that: "Everyone wants to make a difference", and I could not agree with him more.  Every one of us here, Mr Speaker, wants to make a difference.  We all want to be part of a province that is successful, growing, working, caring, delivering and helping.  I do not want to keep hearing about how Welfare is not succeeding in working and I really do urge that we have another hard look at this Department of our Province with the view to making it a successful department.  Thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  I will now call upon hon member Mrs Downs who has got four minutes.

MRS J M DOWNS:  Mr Speaker, I would like to begin by congratulating the Minister on the efforts that have been made to stamp out corruption and the successes that they have had in that.  I feel that I have to say something congratulatory because the next part of my speech, I am afraid, I have to really dump on the Minister.  I have no choice.

I want to start, Mr Minister, by just showing you today's Echo, and this is my point.  The front page of today's Echo says: "Foster mother accused of abuse".  It is a report of a foster mother who has taken in a number of children for the welfare grant and has not looked after the children.  I am just doing that to illustrate my point, Mr Minister.

There are so many private agencies that are dealing with children, private welfare agencies, plus the Social Services Department of the Social Welfare and barring one or two, most of them are in a shambles and it is very difficult to get services, particularly for children in trauma.  This has to be attended to.  I cannot actually take more time in Parliament informing you about the terrible services that abused children have received.  Last time, I do not know how I managed to contain myself, I really wanted to weep when I reported what happened.  But when you have got private welfare agencies, Mr Minister, the government social services refuse to step in.

In my own area, we have two private agencies where the social workers are not monitored by government.  They are not doing a proper job, and there is further abuse of children that are placed into foster care.  But the sad thing is, is that when you have a child that needs to be removed, a 14 year old, so badly beaten that the child cannot even walk, social services scream at the police, saying: "How dare you remove that child, we have got no-where to place it". 

We found five prospective foster families, but they cannot be screened because nobody has the time to come out and spend the time screening them.  And when you do place children in foster families, either through a private welfare agency, or through the Welfare Department, they are not properly monitored and our children, who have already been at risk, are at risk once again.  I cannot tolerate it any more and I am going to make a very big noise about it.

I also cannot tolerate the fact that the private agencies, which must be monitored by this Department, have carte blanche virtually because we do not have the personnel, so they do what they please with the children.

THE SPEAKER:  The hon member is left with a minute.

MRS J M DOWNS:  Then there are private agencies that know of abuse and do not report it.  If the Minister wishes, I can actually provide him with court transcripts to show him that these agencies must be monitored.

I am going to re-work the Children's Commissioner Bill which I presented during the last session of Parliament, because more than ever I believe that it is vital that we institute it in this Province to actually set up a monitoring process for the whole Welfare system when it comes to children.

I down-loaded something from the Internet which said that in Australia, the rise in child prostitution was related directly  to the fact that there was no monitoring body or someone to speak for children.  I really plead with this House and with the Minister, we have to look into this as a matter of urgency and I am not going to let up until we do.

THE SPEAKER:  The hon member's time is up.

MRS J M DOWNS:  And that is a promise.  Thank you, sir.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  I will now call upon the hon member Nxumalo unemizuzu emine.  [The hon member Mr Nxumalo you have four minutes].

MR S N NXUMALO:  Baba Somlomo, ngithi angibonge lelithuba ngibonge lomnyango weZenhlalakahle, ngibonge uMhlonishwa uNgqongqoshe ngomsebenzi wakhe asewenzile kuze kube imanje ikakhulukazi ekulwisaneni nokukhwabanisa okukhona kulomyngo.

Sike sizwe njalo ekuseni uma sivula imisakazo yethu bekhuluma ngokuboshwa kukakotshi.  Nebala kusomqulu lona ophumile siyazibona izinombolo ezifakazela lokho.  Okunye futhi obekuvamise ukuthi sizwe njalo ukuthi imoto lena ethwala imali ibanjiwe inkunzi yathathwa imali yabantu abadala, kodwa manje sekuya ngokuncipha nakuba kusekhona lapha nalaphaya. 

Sengikushilo lokho kodwa ngithi ake ngisike elijikayo nje kengibeke amabala lapha nalaphaya ezintweni okufanele ukuthi lomnyango uzibhekele.  Okokuqala kukhona loluhlelo lokungcwaba abantu abasuke beshone bengenabani kuqala bekucacile bekwenza kahle kodwa manje ngathi sekunenkingana.  Sesike sathola ukuthi abantu ayisekho imali yokwenza lowomsebenzi lezinhlangano ebezikwenza abangcwabi sebevele bathi akusewona umsebenzi wabo uHulumeni akasenayo imali.

Kwesinye isikhathi sike sabona isibonakaliso esibi kwenye indawo lapho sibone amaphoyisa ehamba nesidumbu ngeveni nje eyisikhevezi neziboshwa ngemuva kukhona isidumbu bafike bamba bamba basigqiba babuyela emuva umuntu engaziwa ukuthi owakabini lowo, kwenzenjani.

Mhlawumbe okunye sithi umnyango awukubheke ilama queue amade okuvukwa kuwona izintatha noma kuyolalelwa khona.  Kulezindawo uthola ukuthi izindlu zangasese zokuzikhulula azikho namanzi awekho kulezindawo, uma ekhona awanele ukumumutha umthamo wabantu abasuke bekhona.  Besithi umnyango awuyibhekisise lendaba.

Mhlawumbe lelisu alivumi yini ukusebenza kuleli kule-Province yethu lezimali uma zifakwa emabhange na.  Ngoba asikaze sibone abamhlophe bebamba lama-queue anjengawethu.  Nathi asiphucuzeke savotela impilo engcono.

THE SPEAKER:  The hon member is left with a minute.

MR S N NXUMALO:  Okunye esithi akubhekisiswe uhlelo loku aplaya kwabantu abasuke bekhubazekile mhlawumbe abakhubazeke ukugula engathi loluhlelo luthatha isikhathi eside, luthi luqamba luphumelela abanye babo basuke bengasekho emhlabeni.  Okunye engingathi okokugcina ngci Mhlonishwa ukubandakanyeka kwalamakomiti akhona la kwezezimpeshini ukuthi yini umsebenzi wawo kahle kahle ngoba sesike sithole sesizwa kwezinye izindawo sekuthathwa o-R2 kuzona izalukazi lezi, kwesinye isikhathi azithole sekuqoqwa o-R10 kuthiwe kuzofika oNgqongqoshe abathile kuzona izalukazi lezi.  Umnyango akuke ukubhekisise lokhu ukuthi kuyenzeka yini nokuthi kunqandeke uma kwenzeka.

THE SPEAKER:  Ilungu elihloniphekileyo seliphelelwe isikhathi.  [The hon member has one minute left].

MR S N NXUMALO:  Bese kungokugcina Somlomo.  Ngiyabonga.

TRANSLATION:  Mr Speaker, I thank you for this opportunity to speak in connection with the Department of Welfare.  I want to thank the hon Minister for the work that he has done up to now, especially in his fight against corruption in this Department.

It is true that we often hear, when we switch on our radios in the morning, that they talk about somebody who has disobeyed the rules.  In fact, in the report that was made public this morning, we can see the figures that bear testimony to this.  We also often used to hear that the vehicles which transports the money had been robbed and that the money which was meant for the old people had been taken, but now this is diminishing, although it still happens occasionally.  I have already said this, but I want to say that I just want to briefly touch on certain issues which this Department should look out for.

Firstly, there is this programme which is directed towards the burial of people who have no one to bury them.  Previously this was clear and it was done properly, but now I see that there is a problem.  We have now discovered that there is no more money in order to fulfil this task.  The private funeral parlours just say it is not their task and that the government no longer has any money.

At other times we have seen a very bad example at a certain place where we saw that the police were carrying a body in a police van where together with this body were prisoners in the back of the van.  They took this body to a certain spot.  They arrived at this particular spot and they started digging and they buried the body and returned.  People did not even know who the person was that had been buried in such a manner, and why such a person should have been buried in this manner.

Perhaps another thing that we would like the Department to pay attention to would be the long queues that the people have to endure.  One finds that in these places there are no toilets, there is no water in these areas.  If there is water, there is not enough water to provide for the number of people that come to these places.  We would request the Department to look into this issue.

Perhaps I should ask whether the plan of depositing the money directly into the bank accounts does not work in this Province, because we have not seen the whites standing in long queues such as the queues which we find in our communities.  We should also become enlightened because we voted for a better life.

Another issue which needs to be attended to is the programme which relates to disabled people.  Some of these people have been disabled due to sickness.  I say this programme takes too long. By the time this programme comes to fruition, some of these people are already dead.  Something else which needs to be looked into by the hon Minister, and this is the very last thing that I am going to mention, is the involvement of the committees which exist in this area of pensions.  What needs to be looked into is precisely what role these committees play, because we have found that in certain areas we have heard that an amount of R2,00 has been taken from the people, from the old ladies and at other times we have found that an amount of R10 has been collected and it is then said that certain Ministers are going to come to the old ladies.  The Department should look into this in order to establish whether it is indeed happening and if so, to prevent it.

That was the last thing I wanted to say, Speaker.  Thank you.  T/E

THE SPEAKER:  Siyabonga nathi.  [We thank you].  I would like to advise members that the list of speakers has been changed, as agreed to by the Whips.  Instead of Mr Shabalala I will call on Dr Roopnarain, who has got six minutes.

DR U ROOPNARAIN:  Mr Speaker, hon members, I would like to compliment the hon Minister on his insightful report presented to this House.  I listened to the report and felt empathy for the hon Minister, especially in the light of the daunting task faced by his Department.  I speak of the immense amount of fraud and corruption.

Today, Mr Speaker, I want to speak about the plight of the mentally challenged.  I believe that it is up to us to help more South Africans who are mentally impaired reach their maximum potential, and to fight the stereotypes and stigmas that for too long have been directed at people with mental disabilities.  Mr Speaker, I was saddened to hear that one of my colleagues from the Secretariat lost his sister last night.  This young woman was mentally challenged and eventually committed suicide and her children had to discover her body.  I cannot begin to imagine the desolation and shock of these little children.

I feel hurt, Mr Speaker, and being a sociologist, I could go on speaking about society and the social pathology we are facing.  But today, I want to focus on mental disabilities.  We know for a fact that mental illness and disabilities are not usually discussed publicly.  I do not understand why mental illnesses are often trivialized as passing personality issues, often dismissed as character weaknesses, or not acknowledged at all and swept under the carpet.  Let us face it, when you break your leg, you go to the emergency room.  When you feel a pain in your chest, you go to the doctor.  But unfortunately, too few people seek treatment for mental illness, fearing the shame and stigma attached to these disorders.

On the other hand, you have the scenario that people do not have access to these counselling facilities and social workers.  This is also ironic, because both research and experience has shown that mental illnesses are treatable.  This is where more psychological counselling is needed and this is where the Department's initiatives are needed.  I know that the lack of resources further heightens the problem.  An increase in the Department's budget will ensure that more counselling centres are established for these vulnerable groups.

On a second issue, I know that the Department has done a lot of work in this area in terms of inter-sectoral work with the Department of the Premier, Health and Education.  I just want to touch on the term `handicap'.  Hon members, have you ever wondered where the term handicap came from?  The dictionary has one definition, from an old Gaelic term which referred to a person with a disability who had to stand on the street corner begging with his "cap in hand".  Is it this term that should be applied to anyone with a disability?  Hopefully not.  Persons with disabilities want the same things all South Africans want:  dignity, respect and the opportunity to participate fully in South African life.  Those achievements are hard to attain when one's whole being is defined by a label:  handicapped, crippled, mentally retarded, blind, deaf, etcetera.

Also, on this subject, Mr Speaker, I believe that the welfare is inter-related with the health.  Similarly words such as `nuts', `wacko', `psycho', `lunatic' are dehumanizing affronts to people suffering from mental illness.

I just want to touch on children.  Children are not born with birth defects.  They are born with congenital disabilities, they are not defective.  Toasters might me, babies are not.  I talk of these labels, Mr Speaker, because I believe that perceptions need to change, attitudes need to change and society's acceptance and respect for people with disabilities will increase and we will become an inclusive society.

Let us look for change within ourselves first.  Persons with disabilities must be perceived as valuable, participating members of society because that is what they are.  History tells us it takes at least one generation between the time an idea is born and the time it is actually incorporated into our society.  Perhaps we will change this truism.  We have no time to waste.  I hope that some day when I am speaking to my children, labels will be as extinct as dinosaurs.  I thank you, Mr Speaker.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

MR A RAJBANSI:  Mr Speaker, I rise on a point of order.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Can I hear what the point of order is?

MR A RAJBANSI:  Yes.  Somebody is calling me out of this House under false pretences.  I got a note yesterday, that something was wrong, there was a light on in my car and it was not.  I was called out now to say something is wrong with my car and I see on my windscreen a very big board, it says "Vote DP".  Anybody can see it.  [LAUGHTER]  I am not accusing the DP, but the board is there on my windscreen.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  I hope that the hon members know the procedures with regards to calling each other out of the House and if there is any person is misleading a person in the House, we will deal with him in due course.  If there are more facts, Raj, can you give them to us.  Thank you.

MR A RAJBANSI:  The person who did it, I think very low of him.  Very low.  
HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS AND LAUGHTER.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Can I proceed?  Can we have order.

MR C M LOWE:  Mr Speaker, on a point of order, if Mr Rajbansi is insinuating that I had something to do with it, I would say immediately that that is a bald faced lie.

MR RAJBANSI:  I know, Mr Speaker, that he is happy and gay about what has been done.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  If you continue in this manner I will be more than flexible to those who speak and I will allow them a few minutes extra and we will just lay down a rule that every member  will remain here until this sitting closes today.  So please, can we respect that.  I now call upon Mr Ngidi.  You have nine minutes, sir.

MR N V E NGIDI:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  I would like to join the chorus of voices complimenting the hon Minister for his report.  It is a detailed and factual report enabling us to have a good view of what is happening in the Department.

To effectively deal with the topic at hand, it is important to begin by positing some general facts.

Social Welfare refers to an integrated and comprehensive system of social services, facilities, programmes and social security to promote social development, social justice and the social functioning of all individuals.  Its services and programmes can be regarded as part of an array of mechanisms to achieve social development.  These include health, nutrition, education, housing, employment, recreation, rural and urban development and land reform.

Social welfare programmes that are effective should include:

	*	attaining basic social welfare rights for all;

	*	redressing the inequities of the past, especially with regard to women, children, the youth, the disabled and people in rural communities and developing areas;

	*	recognising the role of organs of civil society in the welfare system, such as non-governmental development organisations, community-based rehabilitation centres organisations, the private sector, religious organisations, traditional and other complementary healers, trade unions and individual initiatives and the establishment of guidelines for mutual co-operation;

	*	empowering individuals, families and communities to participate in the process of deciding on the range of needs and problems to be addressed through local, provincial and national initiatives.

The nett effect of what has been said is that the major thrust of social welfare programmes is developmental.  It has the objective of radically transforming, not only social welfare, but also communities who are the beneficiaries of these programmes.  Social welfare must therefore not be static, but should be continuously delving into new areas, rising to higher planes in the endeavour to bring about a better life.

Towards this objective the Department cannot afford to fall into comfort zones, such as is the impression at the moment, that social security is the comfort zone of the Department and therefore falls short in promoting social developmental and poverty alleviation programmes.  The Department must take bold steps and continuously break new ground and delve into virgin areas.

The report does show a tendency towards this trend.  However, there is no gainsaying that this trend needs to be speeded up and be better co-ordinated.  There is a need for a closer monitoring of poverty alleviation programmes.  There are some cluster co-ordinators who do not seem to be well vested with their work.  Some of these programmes are being developed in a haphazard manner.

Mr Speaker, corruption is still our biggest problem.  The news of the apprehension of corrupt elements within the Department is welcomed.  It does not, however, mean that corruption is abating, on the contrary, it is worsening.  Much of it takes place at pay points where our aged are made to pay bribes to be placed in favourable positions in queues or even to receive their pensions.  Some pension committees are milking pensioners of their meagre earnings.  Stories such as we heard from Eshowe, involving some important community leaders, are disconcerting, to say the least.  These need urgent attention.

It is important that the recipients of social welfare grants really get what is due to them and in time.  There are reports that people apply for pensions and it takes forever before these applications come through and often there are no reasons for the delay.  In the meantime, the applicant is in the dark and has no source of income.  Food parcels that are due to applicants never reach their destination.  On the other hand, pensions are stopped without explanation and at times pensioners receive reduced amounts.  This state of affairs traumatises our old people.  The Department must attend to this and ensure that all applications are dealt with expeditiously and according to proper procedure.

The attitude of our social workers and social welfare employees needs to be addressed.  While one understands the difficult conditions under which these workers work, the ill treatment that they sometimes meet out to our aged is despicable and cannot be excused.  In Manguza, for example, there is a lady called Lindiwe who has become the bane of the aged.  Even the Induna of the area has not been spared her venomous utterances.  What is worse is the conflict of interest involving the same lady as she is also engaged in a funeral scheme and therefore forces pensioners to take up this scheme, failing which dire consequences visit them.  Social workers must be imbued with the spirit of patriotism, if not, they should have no place in the Department.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

MR N V E NGIDI:  Mr Ngema touched on the poor resources that are available to our social workers.  I would like to add my voice to that.  What is also problematic is the red tape that confronts the Department in acquiring vehicles, for instance.  Some district officers have problems in that payments for such facilities as the telephone and electricity are delayed because of the long communication line between the Department of Social Welfare and the Department of Public Works.  This must be attended to and attended to urgently.

In conclusion, Mr Speaker, one of the biggest problems that is going to face this country is the issue of the AIDS orphans.  We need to prepare and prepare well for this.  We need to build up structural support for these children.  We need to be mindful of the fact that because of their vulnerability and the fact that HIV/AIDS undermines family structures, even those of the extended families, these children will be relying heavily on community support.  Programmes must be developed as early as possible to capacitate communities to deal with this issue.  I would like to suggest that this Legislature, as soon as possible, holds a workshop to develop such programmes.  I thank you, Mr Speaker.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Ngidi.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  We have come to the - is it another point of order?

MR Y S BHAMJEE:  Just a point of information, Mr Speaker.  I thought the House would be keen to know that in the test match between England and South Africa, England are all out for 122 and South Africa are about to bat.  Thank you.  [LAUGHTER]

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Well, I guess that today it is a very good session.  It started with a march and it is going to be concluded with these sort of announcements and points of orders.  We have come to the conclusion of the debate.  It is now the time for the hon Minister to reply to the debate.  Ndabezitha.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

PRINCE G L ZULU: (Minister of Social Welfare and Population Development):  Mr Speaker, I wish to thank my colleagues for the constructive manner in which they have debated my short report. Yes, it was short.  [LAUGHTER]  I must also note that I am given not more than 10 minutes to reply and being mindful of the time I took in delivering the report, I can assure members that I will be short this time.

First and foremost, I would like to thank the House for the support and remarks, I must admit, constructive remarks, by various speakers today.  Secondly, I am indebted to the people of the Province of KwaZulu-Natal who elected me to serve them.  We are given the mandate and we have delivered.  Where we ran short, we are busy assessing our delivery channels.

Mr Speaker, before I respond to some of the issues raised today, I would like to thank the senior citizens of our Province, who co-operated during our cleaning-up programme in the pension pay-out systems.

I heard the hon member Miss Nahara referring to the fact that they were not involved.  I first reported to the Cabinet that we were going to undertake this task and on many occasions I reported the progress on radio.  I have a good relationship with this hon member.  I wonder why she did not approach me, as she does approach me for other things.  

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS AND LAUGHTER.

PRINCE G L ZULU: (Minister of Social Welfare and Population Development):  I wonder what you people think the other things are.  Social Welfare.  [LAUGHTER]  I mean Social Welfare matters that we discuss.  She is a member of the Social Welfare Committee, so we only discuss Social Welfare matters.  [LAUGHTER]

In a serious vein now.  The concerns raised by members and the compliments are highly appreciated.  In view of the responses required I will respond to members after this sitting, in writing, which I think will be more effective.  I need to research some of the questions that were raised.  

Kodwa ngifisa ukusho ukuthi ubugebengu budlangile lapha ngaphandle, futhi abusozwe baqedwa umnyango wezenhlalakahle kuphela, kuyoqedwa ukuba sonke sihlanganise izindla.  Buyoqedwa ukuba sonke umthetho wezwe lakithi uqine uzwakale entanyeni yezigebengu.  Singasho ukuthi izigangi azinandawo emnyangweni wami.

TRANSLATION:  But I want to say that crime is rife in our country, and it will not be eradicated by the Department of Welfare acting on its own.  Crime will only be eradicated if we all join hands.  Crime will be eradicated by the strengthening of all the laws of our country.  Rogues must feel the yoke of the law around their neck.  We could say that dishonest people and rogues have no place in my Department.  T/E

I have declared zero tolerance on crime in my Department.  As members have read there are 91 cases pending and before the new millennium bashes staff members will be behind bars.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

PRINCE G L ZULU: (Minister of Social Welfare and Population Development):  Mr Keys complained about facilities at pay-points.  I just want to remind him that we took over from the white government, it was running the process and I have experienced what they did.  We are doing our best to improve the situation in our communities.  But of course that is determined by the amount of money available in my Department.

MR R E KEYS:  Mr Speaker ...

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Ndabezitha engathi ufuna ukubeka i-point of order.  [Hon Minister, I think somebody wants to make a point of order].

MR R E KEYS:  Will the hon Minister take a question?

PRINCE G L ZULU: (Minister of Social Welfare and Population Development):  Yes, when I have completed my speech.

MR R E KEYS:  Thank you.

PRINCE G L ZULU: (Minister of Social Welfare and Population Development):  As far as the CSG is concerned, it is meant to alleviate poverty in our youth, our young children.  The Department has engaged in initiatives by the community so as to alleviate poverty.  We afford the money to start projects so that by the time the child reaches the age of seven years, the projects have enabled the communities to have enough money to care for the child.

The complaint is made that the elderly people received bad treatment.  The reason is very clear, and is as a result of the education that was afforded to our people in this country.  The blacks were given Bantu education, which did not enable people to be proud of themselves.  This is the result, the outcome of the so-called Bantu education.  This education was not afforded to other race groups.  At one stage they were forced to learn Latin, to learn other people's languages and they were not forced to learn our language.  That is why there was a revolt by the youth during 1976.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

PRINCE G L ZULU: (Minister of Social Welfare and Population Development):  I just want to remind my brother that when he speaks he must look back to where we came from.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!  INTERJECTIONS.

PRINCE G L ZULU: (Minister of Social Welfare and Population Development):  I am not going to answer each member.  As I have mentioned my staff members are present and are taking notes.  Members in due course will receive written answers.

About the shortage of cars in the district offices, this is problematic to me because we do supply cars.  Within two weeks' we are told that the car has been stolen.  I do not think the government has sufficient money to buy cars to substitute the cars that are stolen almost on a daily basis.

I am aware also that during the re-registration process some people were left out, but I want to assure this House that we are busy doing something to correct the wrongs.  We have at present the situation that you find that young people who should not be getting a pension are getting a pension, but the aged who should be receiving a pension are not.  The people who were in charge of these applications reduced the age of these people on the documents.  So it is something that we are trying to correct.  People must just please bear with us.

We are trying to render an efficient service and my Department needs the type of commitment and support that it has received from the House.  I would like to thank members of the portfolio committee, under the leadership of Mr Ngidi, other departments, the general public and my staff members for the work done so far.  I thank only those that are doing what they should be doing.  I do not thank those members that are in gaol because they are there despite the warnings that I have given that corruption must stop, but they did not take notice of what I am saying.

A certain Miss Hlatshwayo, who was stationed at Nqutu, Dundee, engaged in corruption.  She decided to run away, to abscond from the office and the Fraud Squad was looking for her.  She was hiding, absenting herself from duty and eventually she was caught.  She was granted bail of R2,000, which I am told she cannot raise.

So fraud is something that is continuing in the Department and I ask people to assist us with information because the Department alone cannot really deal with the fraud.  It is not only in my Department, in all other departments there is fraud.

I thank everybody that has participated in this debate.  Thank you, Mr Speaker.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Minister, Ndabezitha.  We then conclude the debate on the Social Welfare.  We go on to 8.3.
Mr Keys, do you still want to raise your question?

MR R E KEYS:  The hon Minister did indicate he would take a question after he had responded.

PRINCE G L ZULU: (Minister of Social Welfare and Population Development):  I am afraid my time is over.  [LAUGHTER]

MR R E KEYS:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  [LAUGHTER]

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you.  That then allows us to proceed with point No 8.3 on the Order Paper.

8.3	DEBATE ON THE REPORT BY THE MINISTER OF ECONOMIC AFFAIRS AND TOURISM IN TERMS OF RULE (9)3.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  The first to speak on this matter is Mr E S Mbatha.  According to my list you have eight minutes.  I hope I am right.

MR E S MBATHA:  Thank you, Mr Speaker, hon members.  Firstly, I would like to thank the hon Minister, Mr Mabuyakhulu, the Minister of Economic Development and Tourism in our Province, for his detailed report that he tabled to this House yesterday.  The hon Minister covered various issues in his report, for which we are most grateful.  Sithi siyathokoza.  [We thank you].

Economic Affairs and Tourism are obviously linked in a symbiotic relationship.  One cannot exist without the other.  KwaZulu-Natal, on the brink of a new millennium, is determined to develop both in order to improve the status quo of its people and to cultivate the inherent potential of the Province, in order to make it one of South Africa's major tourist attractions.

In order to do this, several mechanisms need to, and are being put into place.  The basic development needs are those of education and job creation.  In order for this to be done, initial seed money has to be spent on new projects, which, when completed, will provide the infrastructure and ability for the Province to surge ahead and lead the way for development and tourism in South Africa.  We need, right now, to invest about R20b for the next 20 years to catch up with the backlogs in our infrastructure and pursue our goals, as was articulated in the policy speech which was delivered in this House for 1999/2000 budget vote.  But I must, however, indicate that many of these are already taking place in our Province.

The relocation of Durban International Airport to La Mercy and the development of a new harbour are still under discussion.  These are critical to the concept of the SDI, which is the Spatial Development Initiative, which will enable us to open up our Province and allow rapid progress to take place.

The disappointment of the Point Water Front and Durban Wharf Developments, although not yet solved, have been alleviated somewhat by smaller initiatives which are beginning to look promising.  The congestion of our ports and the restructuring of Portnet, as well as the Point Water Front Development, remain priorities and will have to be addressed in the near future to allow our plans for rapid development to go ahead.

The development of an adequate transport system is essential.  A start has been made with the achievements of the KwaZulu Transport Services in providing a better bus service in the area but there is a need for growth in this sector to be speeded up and co-ordinated.  The taxi industry is in a state of flux, and, at times, chaos, but slowly moves to achieving unity and organisation, thus providing a better service for our people, is beginning to happen in our Province.

Mr Speaker, the KwaZulu-Natal Finance and Investment Corporation, which is KFC, is showing promising growth and investment in the Ithala Development Finance Corporation continues to grow.  This is imperative in that we need to look forward to relying more and more on private investment and less on State funding.

Despite massive job losses in KwaZulu-Natal, Ithala has managed to use this as a chance to promote small business and job creation.  Ithala managed to create 2,283 new jobs in the micro and small business sector, as well as 5,107 in medium and large industrial sectors, and 2,473 in the growing agri-business sector, a total of 9,959.  It has also managed to foster and establish nearly 1,500 businesses in this period.

Furthermore, Mr Speaker, the Department has been responsible for a number of bursaries and scholarships in a pilot project to extend education and training in order to equip the Province's people for their role in the expected growth of KwaZulu-Natal in the next 20 years.

The creation of the ICC Conference centre and its many successes, has brought prestigious and international conferences into KwaZulu-Natal, increasing interest in the Province and adding greatly to the income earned in the Province, as well as creating jobs.  Among other things, it has created greater international awareness of all we have to offer in terms of tourism and development.  Furthermore, it has enabled individuals and small concerns to create jobs and businesses for themselves in the arts, crafts, hospitality and entertainment industries.

The consolidation of our assets in terms of the natural treasures in our Province, is being achieved in a rapidly accelerated programme.  Amongst other things, there is the Greater St Lucia Wetland Area which, we hope, will be declared a World Heritage Site on 3 December, as the Minister told us, this year, as well as the Drakensberg Area, which is presently being considered as another World Heritage Site.  These two declarations, as well as being extremely prestigious for South Africa as a whole and KwaZulu-Natal in particular, will attract eco-tourism from across the globe.  This will enable local people to develop their own industries around eco-tourism and enable them to participate in the profits and development benefits that eco-tourism will bring with it.

The consolidation of our great game parks and the increases in our wild life tourism is already showing benefits.  The development of the Hluhluwe-Umfolozi area, and the ongoing upgrade in those areas has already benefited the people in the area and further plans to involve the local people in the new developments are being enthusiastically received.  In that area women's craft co-ops are burgeoning, thus alleviating the poverty in the area.  Towns close to the parks are developing, allowing for new entrepreneurship and a greater involvement of the local stakeholders.  These developments will prove positive, because they will help provide job opportunities and skills development, bring financial gain to the area and reduce the crime, which is so often the result of poverty.

However, what is still needed is more funding for education and training throughout the Province.  This needs to be done by encouraging greater investment form the private sector, rather than increasing State subsidies.  The same applies to the development of small business and agri-business, which, if developed could considerably add to the economic renaissance in our Province.

We, as members of the Economic Development and Tourism Portfolio, have identified a real need for more research to be done on the needs of the people in the face of this new development and the ways in which they can be included as beneficially as possible.  There is still a sad lack of research on the needs and abilities of women in the Province and should this be done, we will be able to tap as yet unused resources.  It is common knowledge that women have, for a long time, been neglected as a resource and their potential is unlimited.

I would like to end by pointing out one outstanding success, the marketing of Durban as the "Kingdom of the Zulu".  There is a magnificent advertisement, a programme to encourage people to see the city as that of the new millennium and increased tourism into Durban means increased tourism for all KwaZulu-Natalians.  This can only lead to a better chance of economic development throughout the Province and better conditions for all our citizens.

Finally, Mr Speaker, I would like to give the hon Minister an assurance that as a portfolio committee, we will form part of a new millennium winning team which will ensure that our Province is indeed the fastest growing province in South-Africa.  I thank you very much.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, thank you.  I therefore now call upon Mr Ngcobo.  Mr Ngcobo, you have seven minutes.

MR P NGCOBO:  Mr Speaker, the hon Minister has a vision.  Let us be part of that vision.  Our Legislature is sitting while the entire world is planning and looking forward towards the new millennium.  To those who are unemployed, the millennium will mean nothing if this Legislature does not go an extra mile to eliminate their suffering.  Therefore, our task is to bring about new hope and confidence for the people of KwaZulu-Natal.

We know that the government cannot create jobs, but we can create the climate conducive for job-creation.  The role of the private sector cannot be over-emphasized.  We need to encourage private/public participation.  However, I have a concern about the attitude of the public sector because we are not efficient at the moment and lacking, in certain forms, professionalism.  We must go back to the basics.

I know that some of us will take three months to respond to documents from the private sector.  To sign a mere document sometimes takes one year.  Some do not even respond to letters addressed to them.

I want to take this opportunity of congratulating Durban Metro for entering into an agreement with the Malaysian company called Renong.  We need to call upon other TLC's to follow suit by unlocking projects like the Waterfront.  In Cato Ridge, developments could have taken place a long time ago if it was not through one oil company, called Total, that has stopped the developments in the area.  Companies like that should be blacklisted in this Province because we need new jobs more than any other Province.

Our procurement policy must be strengthened in order to create new jobs and to develop SMME's.  Let us use our buying power by forcing companies and banks that want to do business with us to come to us with companies that reflect all the people of KwaZulu-Natal.  Not companies like Total where you will find that there are 32 board members, all lily white.  Not even the DP is better than them, because yesterday it was flagging hon member Raju to counter the Tiger's exposure of the DP.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  You have created a problem for me, hon member.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Will the hon member take a question?

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Can I understand what has happened.

MR P NGCOBO:  I can take the question.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Yes.  With the reference to that so-called Indian member, is the hon member aware that if it was not for the onslaught by the MF, that Indian member would not have been appointed by the DP.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you.  Proceed, hon member.

MR P NGCOBO:  Absa keeps the provincial account.  Have they done something different from other banks to enable the SMME's to enter into the mainstream of our economy?  They are funding the rugby team instead of supporting our local soccer teams.  They also want 10% collateral from the PDI's.  So they are not different from other banks.

One was listening to the Minister's report yesterday and one appreciates what has been done in the Department.  However, one would like to know more about the level of parastatal restructuring namely KwaShesha and KZT.

Most of the provinces are starting to grapple with the question of job-creation projects, arising out of the Presidential Job Summit.  One notes that only R23m has been contributed by the stakeholders.  How much came from this Province?  For those of us who have been following the national debate between South Africa and the European Union we need to ask how we can take advantage created by this agreement.

On the casino front, we need to speed up the issuing of licences and debate the question of the licences of the operators.

At the same time we need to look at the horse industry, which is still dominated by the white males.  Hon Minister Miller must deal with these white males and tell them that in KwaZulu-Natal, we have the hon Mr Rajbansi there, we have a different kind of racial composition and therefore, even their company must reflect that. 

AN HON MEMBER:  INTERJECTION.  [LAUGHTER]

MR P NGCOBO:  Let us drive development according to a plan so that potential investors can engage us, thus adding meaningfully to the PPP's. 

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  The hon member has only two minutes more.

MR P NGCOBO:  Job-creation is our collective responsibility.  Let us join hands with the Minister and get our Province working.  Let us develop an aggressive campaign to draw investment.  Let us market our beautiful Province so that the Province is united in purpose in order to create more jobs.  I thank you, Mr Speaker.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you.  The next to speak is Mr Nel, and Mr Nel, you have five minutes, according to this amended list.

MR W U NEL: (Whip):  Ngiyabonga Baba Somlomo.  Baba kuyabonakala manje ukuthi i-IFP ayisabusi kulesifundazwe sakithi awubheke akasekho namhlanje.  Ngizwe omunye ethi mhlawumbe bajoyine inyunyane amalungu ahloniphekile ngoba ngalokho bayasiphatha namhlanje abekho.

Baba bengifuna ukubeka ukuthi nami senginovalo umangifika ekhaya sengifika ebusuku ngoba siyahlala lana kuze kuhwalale.  Kodwa izolo uma ngifika ekhaya ngifike sekumnyama.

TRANSLATION:  Thank you very much Mr Speaker.  It is obvious that the IFP are no longer in charge of this Province.  Just notice that he is no longer here today.  I heard somebody say maybe they have joined a union.  Hon members they govern us, but they are not present today. 

Mr Speaker I wanted to state that I am afraid to go home because when I got home it was already dark, because we stay here until very late.  When I arrived home yesterday it was already dark.  T/E

MR A J HAMILTON:  Mr Speaker, on a point of order, the hon member across the House, is indulging in electioneering in the House.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  If the hon member could please continue.

MR W U NEL: (Whip):  Baba ngeke simthathe loyo.  [UHLEKO]  Izolo ntambama uma sengifika ekhaya sekumnyama kodwa ngifika sengibona ukuthi seliyaduma izulu.  Ngithi ngiyangena manje uMapholoba uthi awu kodwa namhlanje ngenzeni kanti.  Nikhulume nakhuluma kanti ngenzeni, uthi niyakhuluma kodwa asiboni lutho.

Uthi kimi kufuneka ngithathe umsebenzi wangempela ngizojwayela ukuthi kunjani lapha ngaphandle la kuhlala khona abantu esibamele khona la.

Uthi kukhona umthetho othize nothize nama-policies, nama-enviroment regulations, kodwa uma ubheka lapha Municipality awanamali futhi awanamandla okuzenza zonke lezizinto esishaya umthetho ngazo.  Uthi cha, uthi kimi get real.  

TRANSLATION:  I am not taking a question.  Yesterday afternoon when I arrived home it was already dark and there was a thunderstorm.  When I entered Mr Ngcobo asked me what he had done wrong.  You keep on talking but there are no results.  He said that I should embark on a real job, so as to understand the situation in our constituencies. 

He says there are particular laws, policies and environmental regulations but if you look at the municipality they have no power and finances to implement them.  He says no, I should get real.  T/E

I relate this story because it is actually relevant to this Minister of good intentions' portfolio as well and I hope he proves us wrong, that he is not just the Minister of good intentions and that he actually manages to unlock these big investment projects that he spoke about yesterday.  That he manages to succeed with King Shaka Airport by de-linking it from the re-development of the current airport.  That he manages to succeed in re-developing industry in the coal room.  That he manages with the dry dock in the Midlands, or various other things.  Even if he fails in some, at least we will have some real successes because the history is not good and you can look at the SDI which is now dragging on for probably three years and very little to show for it, except the road, I must say.  So, I hope that we succeed.

But I want to point at one in which we have had a singular failure, and that is not really to blame it on him because it is not even his portfolio, but it has to do with major economic investment in this Province, and that is the issue of gambling and the casino licences.  Sir, R3b's worth of investment is sitting there on hold whilst politicians bicker about the legislation.  In my opinion, and in my party's opinion, it is an artificial fight, because is it not strange that the Federal Party, the IFP, discovered that there was a conflict with national legislation, and as I stand here today, I still want to say that in our opinion it is a concurrent competence and that there is no reason for national norms on the particular issue which they wish to raise and that is the involvement of Cabinet, the consultation with Cabinet, so I think it is an artificial fight that is being raised, precisely because political interference has failed.  This thing has now dragged on for a whole year.  For a whole year, whilst hundreds of millions, thousands of millions of investment sit outside.

The exclusivity fees for the gambling rights in Durban alone are R122m.  Those will be paid when the licences are granted.  But the licences are not being granted.  We could have perhaps by now collected R100m in gambling taxes.  We have not.  So we have unlicensed facilities all over the Province continuing and not prosecuted.  The hon member Mr Aulsebrook says we are delaying it.  I challenge that hon Minister to tell us what he has done to bring proper legal advice to the committee.  Not the Department's advice, but the committee advice, and I challenge him to tell us today whether those amendments that they brought really have substance and why they want to tamper with the composition of the Board.

I also have legal advice, and some of them are my own opinions. But you will note that despite the legal advice on both sides, one side will be proved to be wrong.  They simply defend your position as best they can and in this case, I might say, there is not a very good case because the law is not on your side.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  The hon member has used up his time.

MR W U NEL: (Whip):  So all I would say, sir is that in the opinion of the Democratic Party, we must now get real and we must get investment in this Province moving.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you.  I now call upon Mr Volker.  Mr Volker, you have six minutes.

MR V A VOLKER:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  Mr Speaker, I would like to refer to some comparative statistics to indicate in what sphere KwaZulu-Natal has to improve its achievement.

In terms of the latest sensus statistics, the gross domestic product generated by KwaZulu-Natal is 15% of the whole country.  In other words, 15% of the productivity of the country comes from KwaZulu-Natal, but the total population is over 20%. We are lagging behind.  We have the situation that the total population for Gauteng is 1,2m less than KwaZulu-Natal, and yet they contribute 38% of the gross domestic product.  We produce 15%, but Gauteng with 1,2m less people produce 38% of the gross domestic product.  But I would like to bring it further down and calculate the contribution to domestic product in relation to the economically active population because that is a fair analysis.

In KwaZulu-Natal, the mid-year estimate of 1999, out of the 8,9m, 3,031,000 are considered to be economically active.  Now that means that the contribution to the economic development of this country is 4,9% per million economically active, in KwaZulu-Natal.  In Gauteng they say they have 4,005,000 active people and they contribute 38%, which means that they contribute 9,5% per million economically active people.  Twice as much as KwaZulu-Natal.  We are lagging far behind.

In the Western Cape they have 1,842,000 economically active people and they contribute a total of 14%, which is 7,6% per million economically active.  We have a responsibility to ensure that we increase the productivity within this Province.

I would like to make a suggestion.  To do that, we need improvement of the infrastructure.  There are many areas that are lagging behind and where there is inadequate development in the infrastructure.  One of these regions is on the Eastern Sea Board and the Tugela Basin area, in the Eshowe region.  At the moment the transport infrastructure is only north-south.  The N2 runs north-south.  There are no roads running east-west, as in Gauteng, as in Mapumalanga and others.

I would like to suggest that the Minister of Transport should consider talking to his Minister in the National Assembly to build a direct road, from Kranskop to Eshowe.  From Kranskop to Eshowe is only 60 kilometres.  It is not impossible to build that road.  I have driven through roads in the Cape where it is more difficult to build roads because of the mountainous terrain there, than it would be from Kranskop to Eshowe.  If that road was built, it would encourage economic development in that region, a region which needs economic development.  I believe it is essential that the Minister of Economic Affairs, in conjunction with the Minister of Transport, talk to their colleagues in the National Parliament and ensure that monies be made available for the construction of a road there so that the infrastructure enables economic development to really get a boost in this Province of ours.  I thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

THE SPEAKER:  I call upon Mr Rajbansi.  Mr Rajbansi, you have five minutes.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  Firstly, I want to compliment the hon Minister, not only for giving us his theory in respect of his mission and his vision, but also for setting the stage for putting KwaZulu-Natal in the fast lane as far as economic development is concerned.  I think whoever speaks sense, must be appreciated and understood because the comparative figures that were given by the hon Mr Volker, is something which we must take serious note of because previously, it was inter-provincial National Party politics that resulted in the Power House of the former Transvaal to provide all the infrastructure in that area.  I do not want to mention much about the development of the Tugela Basin.  But for every infrastructure the hon Minister provides, or assists in providing, for example, if we get the Point Waterfront development, if we get the casinos going, if we get the airport going, we will out-class Gauteng, as far as productivity is concerned.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

MR A RAJBANSI:  But yet this morning, the hon Minister quite correctly, mentioned the growth rate in this country, and the growth rate before 1994 was static.  Our inflation rate was very high.  Our growth rate at one stage went to minus 3%.  But we have an improvement in the growth rate of 6%.  Nobody speaks about that.  Nobody hails the public and the private sector.  If our country reaches a growth rate of 6% and then we see 8% on the horizon, South Africa will be the envy of Africa and the envy of the world.

I have a copy of a speech delivered by a very important politician.  I want to link this to this type of publicity, that nobody commends the Premier, nobody will commend the State President, or the Minister of Transport, or the Minister of Economic Development, when we put on the score sheet how many jobs have been created, or how many people in this country have been given homes.  In the Richmond Farm area we are going to get 37,000 new homes that will activate the economy.  But what they worry about is crime, worrying about air flights, worrying about lifts, etcetera.  Let us now give this Legislature the image and the high profile it deserves because this hon member who passed the remark was subjected to humiliation yesterday when the hon Premier put into this House one word of truth and today in the newspapers ...

AN HON MEMBER:  Mr Speaker, on a point of order.

MR A RAJBANSI:  We saw nothing about that truth because there is manipulation of the media industry in South Africa. 

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Can the hon member give me a chance.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Yes, I will take the question.

AN HON MEMBER:  Mr Speaker, I just want to know if the hon member Mr Rajbansi, if he will take a question.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Yes, yes.

AN HON MEMBER:  I just want to ask Mr Rajbansi whether he is aware of the fact that the hon member Mr Raju, who is an NCOP member, is a card-carrying member of the DP.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Yes, he is a card-carrying member of the DP, but he is just a temporary sojourner in the DP.  [LAUGHTER]

I want to suggest to the hon Minister to create more jobs by asking the manufactures of Doom to open more Doom factories because there are many people who are bugging their own buildings for publicity purposes, now it is going to be certain that every political party, every house, will have bugs. 

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  The hon member has less than one minute.

MR A RAJBANSI:  But I want to come to a speech delivered by a great politician.  It is a matter of sadness to learn that our white counterparts are still subjected to unbelievable propaganda against any organisation, whether political, cultural, business or provincial, that is led by an African.  This demonstrates how much still needs to be done to create a society where the colour of one's skin is irrelevant.  The perception is still prevalent here that Africans are a mistake and the speaker is a person called Minister S'bu Ndebele, delivering a speech in the joint debate. 

But what I want to say, there is development, this Province is ticking.  To the hon Minister, put on the score-sheet, SMME.  We do not need big investment, you will level the playing field distributing wealth.  Take the wealth away from Durban North and put it in other areas.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Time is up for the hon member.

MR A RAJBANSI:  We will see our economy and down they will go.  Up we will go.  [LAUGHTER]

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Can I now call upon Mr Hamilton.  Mr Hamilton, according to my amended list, you now have six minutes. Alexander Hamilton, the hon member.

MR A J HAMILTON:  Thank you, sir.  Congratulations to the Minister on a fine report on progress in his Department to date.  His enthusiasm is evident.  I am very pleased to hear of plans to rationalise and consolidate tourism marketing throughout South Africa and I urge the Minister to endeavour to promote much closer working relationships between the authority and Durban Africa, particularly in the field of joint marketing of both the City of Durban and the Province.  I also hope that the Minister will not only consult with his Department on his strategic planning, but will also do the same with the authority, and most important perhaps, the portfolio committee.  We hope to be kept up to date.

On the airport and the port, I do not intend to cover old ground.  This House is well aware of my feelings and I think the House has supported it.  I want to repeat that this Province has an opportunity to secure its economic future into the 22nd Century if we have the courage and the political will to act to get the airport built, to get our dry dock built in Richards Bay and to get the new port facilities completed in Durban.  If we wish to be part of the global trading system and part of the shipping system of the world, we have to have a world class port.

There is much competition out there in the world, not in South Africa.  Mozambique is not any competition and never will be to us.  The real competition for the role that we rightfully should have in this Province and the port of Durban for containers and Richards Bay for bulk, the real competition for that role comes from Salla and Aden and some people even say Mauritius.  I do not agree that Mauritius is real competition.  Soon the window that we have of about two years will pass and so will the opportunity, and then instead of being a regional and global hub, we will be at the end of a spoke of the hub.  In other words a dead end, whatever comes to us will be for our consumption only.

I beg this House to have the political will and the courage to understand there is no gain without pain.  I ask this House to  get together, form a group to find ways and means to make it work.  There are many ways of raising money to assist the airport company to get off the ground.  We can get on with the port and find ways to ensure that the deep water graving dock in Richards Bay gets built.  These are vital for the future of this Province.  They are the greatest provincial and national treasures we will have here but we will lose them if we do not act.

Mr Speaker, my hon friend, Rajbansi, talked about crime, we all bleat about crime.  Let us face the facts, crime has a major impact, not only on tourism - and tourism is one of the three fields in which we are going to create jobs.  It also has a major demoralizing effect on the people of this Province of all colours, so that my good friend, the hon Rajbansi, can not say I am being racialistic and only worrying about crime in Durban North.  I am worried about crime in Chatsworth, I am worried about crime in Umlazi and every other place, as is every person in this House.  It is not a racial entity.

But we do not even have the determination to follow through with something like Car Watch.  On a R25b budget, we cannot get R5m for 5,500 Car Watch operatives into this Province.  It is the kind of thinking that we have.  We have a gatekeeper mentality instead of a facilitator mentality.  The old idea was, tell the person why he cannot do something.  Do not tell the entrepreneur or the poor little petitioner why he can do something.  What we need to start thinking about is how can we tell people that they are capable of doing something.

We all talk about SMME's.  What are we doing with the SMME's?  That is the third hope for jobs.  Tourism, SMME's and Agriculture.  We have the Katz Commission.  Mr Justice Katz is a wonderful academic, but does not have practical business experience.  We have a tax system and tax laws, so complicated that I cannot understand them.

Then we have LRA laws, and let us not fool ourselves, I am not playing party-politics, we all know that small business cannot cope with the administration of those things, such as VAT returns every month.  I can prove it to anyone who thinks otherwise.  We need to simplify our laws.

Then there is the Companies Act.  That Act has been amended so many times from when it was passed in about 1910.  Let us start simplifying the lives of our people.  If we want people to honour the laws, make the laws simple to understand and act on.

We have too much regulation, which is mostly ignored.  It is honoured in ignoring it and we do not have the police to enforce it, or the inspectors in the Tax Department.  Mr Speaker, there is one thing here that really concerns me.  We have lost 250,000 qualified professional people in the last five years in South Africa.  We have a growth rate - I must correct my hon friend across the House, we do not have a growth rate of 6%.  On the last quarterly figures, we hope we will have a growth rate of three-and-a-half percent this year and it is nearly all in the agricultural sector.

What are we going to do, because we need growth rates of 8% and 10%.  We will never cope with that kind of growth rate.  We will have inflation and we will go out of business because we do not have anyone to do the business.  So we better start thinking about how we are going to replace the 250,000 people that have left here, and they are mostly in the IT field, and that is where they are going to be needed.

Mr Speaker, I suggest this government starts thinking about that.  And finally, I have a suggestion to make.  Those 250,000 South Africans did not leave here because they thought they were going to a better place, they left us because they could not get jobs.  So we have people that we could get back here, but what are we doing, as a country, to liaise with those people?  Can we not have a newsletter that calls those people together.  We all know where most of them are, we can find out where they are and invite them, through our Foreign Affairs Department, keep contact with them.  When the economy improves, that is a ready pool to bring back here.

In 1963, sir, we had the very same thing, in the building industry.  We could not build a building because there was no-one to do it.  And what did we have to do?  Import tens of thousands of qualified Portuguese artisans, so that we could build the buildings that were needed to be built.  I am not suggesting, Mr Speaker, for one second, that we do not have to train our people, but that takes time and we do not have the time, sir.  Thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Time is up for the hon member.  Thank you.  I now call upon Miss Nkonyeni.  Miss Nkonyeni, you have five minutes.

MRS N P NKONYENI: (Whip):  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  First of all I would like to commend this "young Minister with a vision" for the visionary report he has tabled.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

MRS N P NKONYENI: (Whip):  I want to assure you that he definitely knows his subject.  He has dedicated himself to implementing the policies that were adopted five years ago.

What I have acknowledged when I was listening to the Minister's report is that this Department is capable of using Plan B if plan A does not materialise, with the aim of achieving the same goal.  The approach through the new Global Inter-modal Transpark is a genuine one, which I believe, the Minister will be able to face its complexities.

Having said that, I would like to seek clarity from the hon Minister in connection with the dry ports.  What is it that the Department aims to achieve and how far have you gone with the establishment of the dry ports?

I also appreciate that the Minister has realised that the Department of Economic Development and Tourism cannot approach the rural economic development all by itself without synergising with other relevant departments, such as the Department of Land Affairs, Agriculture, Public Works, Water, Forestry and others.  My question is, have you, therefore started to look at the rural economic development through the same lens?

Mr Speaker, the KwaZulu-Natal Tourism Authority was established through this Department with the aim of marketing the Province to the global world.  At the same time, the regional councils and the TLC's have the same approach to tourism in rural and urban areas.  Is that not a duplication of resources, which is uncalled for?  This approach should be reviewed and a sense of ownership of tourism projects should be developed by involving the relevant structures and the communities themselves.  The KwaZulu-Natal Tourism Authority has an obligation to position this Province in the global markets.  The strategy to realise the potential of KwaZulu-Natal Tourism is government-led, private sector-driven and community-based.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

MRS N P NKONYENI: (Whip):  In conclusion, Mr Speaker, I would like to remind all the Ministers, the department officials and everyone in power that the KwaZulu-Natal Women's Parliamentary Caucus was re-established on 10 November 1999, and they have an obligation to monitor that you adhere to the Beijing Platform of Action, the Convention for the Elimination of all forms of Discrimination against Women, which is abbreviated as CEDAW, the Women's Charter for Effective Equality and the Women's Empowerment Programme of the RDP.

As soon as we are allocated an office, these documents will be available to you so that you will know what is expected of you and your Department.  You all have an obligation to eliminate discrimination against women and advance gender equality.  We are a powerful force which is constituted of ANC women with their slogan, "Wathinta abafazi wathinta imbokodo".  [once you have touched the women, you have touched the core]. with IFP women, with their slogan, "Umfula ongenisayo".  [A river in flood]  and with the MF, All the Way, and DP, Fight Back.  I thank you, Mr Speaker.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Your Ladyship.  The next to speak is Mrs Scott, who has four minutes. 

MRS B SCOTT:  Mr Speaker, hon members of this House.  I would like to congratulate the Minister on his enthusiasm in his new portfolio and I wish him every success in the goals he has set in his Department, especially the bigger projects, such as the King Shaka Airport and the Durban Port.

Before I start my address though, I really do need to remind the hon Mr Aulsebrook that this Province has lost two Premiers because of the IFP's manipulation of the gambling legislation and each time this has happened it has impacted on the economic growth of this Province, with questions directed at the competence of this government.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

MRS B SCOTT:  As you must have heard many times, in today's world the tourism sector is the single biggest provider of employment.  In a province such as KwaZulu-Natal where our levels of unemployment have reached critical levels, we have not done nearly enough to reach our tourist potential.  I have pointed this out to the House before in a previous debate, that France is a prime example that a successful tourist industry does not come for nothing.  President Mitterrand spent millions of francs in renovating Paris to make it the single biggest tourist destination in the world, and it now has an estimated 61 million tourists per annum.  That same kind of commitment needs to be demonstrated by this government if we are serious about creating jobs for our unemployed.

I want to give you a few examples about what we can do.  If we want people to visit our beautiful conservation reserves such as Ndumo, Thembe and Kosi Bay, near the Mozambique border.  Money is going to have to be spent on the road access to these areas.

AN HON MEMBER:  On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

THE SPEAKER:  Order!  Hon member.

AN HON MEMBER:  I just want to ask whether the hon member will take a question, because we do not remember the IFP losing any Premier.

MRS B SCOTT:  No, I will not take a question.

THE SPEAKER:  Okay, thank you.

AN HON MEMBER:  You have got a short memory.

MRS B SCOTT:  The road is over 30 kilometres.  It just is lined with potholes.  Some of them are so big that you could seriously damage your car.

If we want tourists to visit the Umfolozi Game Reserve at the point closest to Ulundi so that they can go and see some of the important Zulu Cultural Heritage Sites near Ulundi, something is going to have to be done to ensure the safety of motorists leaving the reserve.

The horrific rape case of two Swiss tourists when they exited the game park near Ulundi had an immediate negative impact on bookings from both within and outside South Africa to this magnificent park.  What are the police doing in Ulundi to patrol the park entrance?  And have they instituted weekly random road blocks in the area to check vehicles for arms or suspicious-looking individuals?  This is especially pertinent now that we are approaching the Christmas holidays.

Look at the government's pitiful support for ORI, a mere R200,000 a year.  And you know, it was this Province that actually spoke about an aquarium complex long before Cape Town did.  Why did this Province wait for the Western Cape to show us up yet again?  Thank goodness for the new Point Development Scheme which will include a marine park, and that is no thanks to this Province.

THE SPEAKER:  The hon member is left with a minute.

MRS B SCOTT:  There is continual harping about what National Government should or should not be doing and how we in this Province are hampered in our performance, but there is so much that this Province can do.

We need to take responsibility for the bad state of affairs this Province's economy is in.  There are positive things this government could do to combat the escalating levels of crime and lawlessness, and there is nothing stopping this government from actively promoting the growth of small and medium size enterprises and creating a healthy working environment for these businesses to operate.

Minister, I know you are serious about getting our economy on track and I sincerely hope that this House supports your initiatives, even if it costs money because I would much rather see - and I am sure that our electorate would much rather see - the budget actively promoting tourism and creating jobs, rather than on the extravagant useless endeavours which we waste money on.  The Lear Jet being one of them.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  I now call upon the hon member Mrs Downs, four minutes.

MRS J M DOWNS:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  I would also like to congratulate the Minister on his report and his enthusiasm and we will be watching him with great interest.  I would like the Minister to demonstrate his right foot, please.  I hope it is a very big one with a great kicking ability, both to kick down gates and to galvanize some people into action with that foot.

I want to focus particularly on tourism.  We talk a lot about rural development and there are only two ways really to bring development to rural areas: one is through agriculture and the other is through tourism.  In this Province we have everything.  When you look at the wealth, I cannot actually believe it.  We are possibly going to have two World Heritage Sites in one province.  We have a coastline bar none, a sea that is not too cold to swim in, we have marine life, we have coral reefs, we have mountains, we have game reserves, we have everything.  The only things that we lack are marketing, which is where your Ministry comes in, sir, and accessibility.  Those are the two biggest hampering points.

The biggest thing, I think, is the airport.  We have to have an airport of international standards where tourists can come in by the jumbo load and reach, in a very easy and quick manner, our remotest areas.  Our World Heritage Sites most certainly will attract visitors.  There are certain visitors that travel around and tick them off as they go, "I have visited this World Heritage Site, and visited that World Heritage Site".  But they have to be accessible within a few hours of an airport.  My belief is that the airport is absolutely essential and we have to do everything that we can to get that off the ground.  I am not sure what our options are of funding, but if we have to seek public/private partnerships, we have to seek international funding, we have to do whatever we can to get that airport open.

The second thing has already been mentioned by some of my colleagues, the roads need to be improved if we want to develop those rural areas.  The Conservation Services have got wonderful plans to build areas and sites which become `must see', and if you couple that with the development of the Point - and there your strong right foot is going to have to be in big operation -and if we combine that with dolphinariums, diving sites and allied ventures we will have an exciting tourist destination.  But we have to market it well.

Everybody who comes to South Africa knows two things, they know about Table Mountain and they know about Kruger Park.  When you see our Drakensberg, it makes Table Mountain look like a little peanut stuck on the end of Africa.  And that is a fact.

THE SPEAKER:  The hon member is left with a minute.

MRS J M DOWNS:  If you look at Giant's Castle, look at how wonderful and beautiful that is.  And we have to be aggressive in our marketing.  When people think `South Africa' they must think KwaZulu-Natal.

What we have not exposed as well is our cultural heritage.  People are excited about Zulu culture, they are excited about people like King Shaka.  Look how wonderfully marketed the Battlefield Experiences were.  How about putting in simulation of some of Shaka's battles and the amazing things that happened in the Zulu Kingdom.  Look how well that film that was made locally here sold overseas when it was made about King Shaka.  I am telling you that people will come to visit KwaZulu-Natal to see the Zulu Kingdom.  And we have not made enough of it.  It is much more than building a statute at the entrance to the harbour.

THE SPEAKER:  The hon member's time is up.

MRS J M DOWNS:  People want to see and experience the culture and they want to know the history as well.  Thank you.

THE SPEAKER:  Ilungu elihloniphekile uMnumzane uNxumalo unemizuzu emine.  [The hon member Mr Nxumalo has four minutes].

MR S N NXUMALO:  Mr Speaker, I rise to thank the Minister and his Department for the elaborate and well prepared document they presented to us yesterday.  This report outlines what has been achieved and what are the challenges facing this Department.

This is the Department which all eyes are on.  It is well known that the unemployment level is very high.  Many breadwinners are not at work, they have been retrenched or they have lost jobs through various processes.  Our previous education was so designed as to make black people job seekers instead of producers.

Now we have the task, Mr Minister, to change the mind-set of our people to think like producers and employers, instead of being mere employees.  It is often said that South Africa achieved political freedom, but not economic power.

It is this Department which needs to have radical plans to uplift the previously disadvantaged communities.  In our period 1999 to 2004, we must be able to point out what we have done in our time to develop SMME's and empower our communities to function and to be financially viable and independent.

This Province, Mr Minister, is rich.  We have coal mines and recently I have seen gold mines.  Many of these mines have since been closed down, causing most of our people to lose their jobs.  I have questions to the Minister: can we not, as a Province, do something about these mines as they employ our people in large numbers?  I know that this is a national competency, but we as the Province concerned, which has a high rate of unemployment, can't we do something because we know that these mines have the potential to employ a large number of people.

In his report the Minister agrees that the Department is facing tough challenges of uplifting the socio-economic state of rural areas.  I appeal to the Minister not to give lip service to this problem, but we want to see the real plan to achieve excellency.  It should be on paper what will be done, steps by step to uplift the economy in the rural areas.

THE SPEAKER:  The hon Minister is left with a minute.

MR S N NXUMALO:  Lastly, I congratulate the Department for all the initiatives in the pipeline, which I hope, once they have started, will bring bread and milk to many families in this Province.  I thank you.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  I now call upon hon member Mrs Cronje, who has six minutes.

MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  Mr Speaker, just in case members are wondering, I am not trying to speak incognito, I simply forgot my ordinary glasses at home, so please bear with me.  

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS AND LAUGHTER.

MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):  I am very pleased that the hon Minister for Economic Development and Tourism has embarked on a restructuring programme to avoid duplication of functions and waste, and he needs to be congratulated for that.  For he is not only a Minister of good intentions, he seriously intends to be a good Minister and he is succeeding.

One of the aspects that I know the Minister is giving attention to is the restructuring of parastatals and I would like to appeal to him to also look into a possible duplication of functions as far as the Sharks Board and the Conservation Services are concerned.

As we all know, our Conservation Services deals inter alia with the conservation, preservation and related matters of our KwaZulu-Natal coastal areas and marine resources.  This rich natural marine heritage forms one of the cornerstones of our tourism industry, and if it is not correctly and sensitively managed, we will destroy this wonderful asset, and in the process severely damage our tourism industry, because research shows, as the hon Minister knows, no doubt, that most of the tourists who come to our Province are actually coming to the sea.

That is why we need to ask ourselves precisely what role the Sharks Board as a parastatal under his Department is playing in this regard.  There is a lot of concern that the shark nets are doing more harm than good and that our approach to protecting bathers is perhaps an out-dated one which is slowly but surely depleting some of our most precious marine resources, in particular some species of rare sharks which are now on the endangered list, our swordfish and many other species of marine life.

Shark nets, unfortunately, cannot distinguish, they catch indiscriminately and then the fish caught in the nets will die.  We need to re-think this whole issue and follow international best practice as far as the protection of bathers is concerned, because that we need to do as well.

Let us also remind ourselves that shark diving is one of the recreational activities that attract a significant number of tourists, unlikely as it may sound, but it does, especially international tourists, to our Province, in particular.  It is common knowledge that the more variety we can offer tourists, the more niche markets we can offer, the better for our tourism industry.

Then, Mr Speaker, there is the issue of POD.  Time does not allow me to go into any lengthy exposition here, but POD is some device that is supposed to repel sharks and that is supposed to protect bathers.  But the more questions you ask of the Sharks Board about the current state of being of POD, the more you become confused.  Therefore, what needs to be done, in my opinion, is for a thorough investigation to be carried out into the respective roles of the Conservation Services, the Sharks Board and the Oceanic Research Institute, and of course into the process into the whole POD issue.

The Oceanic Research Institute is an NGO which has served this Province for many years, with distinction, and which is world renowned for its work in marine research.  We should, in consultation with them, also look at ways in which the Province can support this body far more adequately than we are doing to date, as my colleague, the hon Belinda said, and even to look at ways in which they can fulfil perhaps, some of the functions on behalf of the Province, again, in an effort to avoid duplication and to use scarce resources to best advantage.

However, Mr Speaker, I am not trying to come up with specific answers or solutions at this stage.  I am merely pleading for a thorough investigation into these matters.  I believe such an investigation is long overdue and I want to suggest to the hon Minister that he could perhaps make use of the portfolio committee to assist him in this regard.  There are a number of us who have been involved in these issues over the years, and I am sure that I am speaking on behalf of my colleagues when I say ...

THE SPEAKER:  The hon member is left with a minute.

MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):  Thank you.  When I say that we will be more than happy to work very closely with the hon Minister in an endeavour to come up with the best possible solutions that will ensure that we use our scarce resources wisely and effectively.

This brings me to two additional items that I want to mention very briefly: the Oceanarium or a marine park.  We need a modern state of the art marine park in the Province.  The existing Oceanarium has run for many years, has given a lot of joy to many of us, to me as a child and as an adult, but it is very old now and we ask the hon Minister to put that very high on his priority list and please, do not let Cape Town show us up.

The other issue is our two World Heritage Sites.  We know that St Lucia, if all things go according to plan, will be declared a World Heritage Site very early in December, a few days from now  and so will be the Drakensberg.

THE SPEAKER:  The hon member's time is up.

MR C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):  Thank you. 

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  [LAUGHTER]  I will now call upon hon member Mr Aulsebrook, who has got five minutes.

MR J F AULSEBROOK:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  First of all, I must compliment the Minister of Economic Affairs and Tourism for the enthusiasm with which he has taken on his new responsibility and we certainly wish him well and hope he can maintain that enthusiasm.

Before I get on to our more important matters, I must admit having heard Mr Nel earlier on ...

MR W U NEL: (Whip):  The hon.

MR J F AULSEBROOK:  The hon Mr Nel ...

AN HON MEMBER:  Sometimes.

MR J F AULSEBROOK:  Sometimes.  Mr Nel, one has to question your motives of your obstruction in the whole process of licensing casinos and one wonders why you take a role that tends to favour a particular bidder every time and that question needs to be answered.

THE SPEAKER:  Order!  Order!  Hon member Mr Nel?

MR W U NEL: (Whip):  Mr Speaker, will the hon member take a very brief question?

THE SPEAKER:  Hon member Mr Aulsebrook?

MR J F AULSEBROOK:  No, Mr Speaker.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you, continue.

MR J F AULSEBROOK:  But you know, then going on, we heard the hon Mrs Scott taking on ...

AN HON MEMBER:  INTERJECTION.

MR J F AULSEBROOK:  That is your opinion.  Taking on the issue of the incident that took place at the Umfolozi Game Park gate.  That is an isolated incident which happened a while back, but on a daily basis tourists are mugged in Durban, right on the beach front, in her own backyard and little is said of that.  I am a bit perplexed by the obsession that she has with Umfolozi and linking it to Ulundi.  Unbelievable.  But any way, let me get on to more important matters.  

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS AND LAUGHTER.

THE SPEAKER:  Hon member Mr Nel, please behave yourself.  Thank you.

MR J F AULSEBROOK:  Mr Speaker, poverty is the world's greatest challenge that we are going to be facing in the next century, and this was highlighted at the Commonwealth Heads of Government Conference recently in Durban.  While poverty predominantly occurs in developing countries, it could certainly threaten the social stability of the entire world.  We in Africa could find ourselves at the forefront of these developments.

Our Provincial Government recognizes this and it is for this reason that the Premier launched the Poverty Reduction Campaign, but in this effort, government is restricted to playing two principal roles, firstly of providing relief and assistance to those caught in the poverty trap.  Given our limited financial resources, this relief may be limited, which is certainly not indicative of our commitment to those in need.

Secondly, government can create a climate and conditions conducive to economic growth.  Here, legislation, economic incentives, monetary policy are some of the means that government can employ.  Unfortunately, most of these are functions of our central government, but let us not hide behind that fact.  There is much that we as a Provincial Government can do and that also includes the lobbying and pressuring of National Government to adopt policies that will promote economic growth.  Hon members, poverty is directly linked to unemployment, which in turn is directly linked to the state of our economy.

THE SPEAKER:  The hon member is left with a minute.

MR J F AULSEBROOK:  While there are numerous suggestions as to how we can achieve economic growth, and we have heard from many speakers here today, but certainly, the most significant input to economic growth is the fact that we need foreign capital injection into our economy.  Merely stimulating our local economy and getting our own money to go around faster is not sufficient.  There are two different ways in which we can bring in foreign capital, one being we develop an export-driven economy.  Here we have the monetary exchange rate in our favour, we have an abundance of labour, we have entrepreneurial skills and I am not sure what it is that we are waiting for in this respect.

THE SPEAKER:  The hon member's time is up.

MR J F AULSEBROOK:  Thank you.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  I will now call upon the hon Minister to reply to the debate.  The suggested time, Mr Minister, is 10 minutes.  Thank you.

MR M MABUYAKHULU: (Minister of Economic Development and Tourism):  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  Mr Speaker, first and foremost, let me congratulate almost all the members for having actually contributed immensely and constructively to the debate. I have no intention to answer each and every individual member in detail, save to say, that in my own view, most of these issues, I am available to discuss these matters during the portfolio committee meetings.  I value the portfolio committee very much and the contributions made by hon members.

But let me touch on some of the issues.  One of the issues that has been raised, which I think is critical, is the question of the private sector investment.  We want to promote more private sector investment and less State funding.  On this issue that we have indeed agreed that in order to be able to have general growth in the economy, government has many other issues that it has to look after and therefore we are going to have limited resources that will go into assuring that we actually put a lot of resources into the economy.  But we need to leverage investments.  If we have to leverage investments, it would therefore mean that as government, we must be prepared to spend money to attract more investment, and that is how the economy works.

If we actually take this as an argument and look at how much we are spending on the economy, and in particular on this Department, National Government is spending 12% of the national budget, through DTI.  What is this Province spending out of the R19b budget that we have?  We are spending 0.56%.  We are actually spending far less than even a percentage, we are not even spending 1% of the total budget.  If members indeed say we need to grow this economy, they must accept that when we come here and decide on the votes, we will have to bear that in mind, that if we have to leverage investment, it would mean we must allocate resources so that it can have a multiplier effect on the economy.

I am therefore linking that issue to the question of the PPP's because we, as government, are promoting PPP's, but I think PPP's are not going to just happen overnight.  Therefore, where we are going to have PPP's, we must have them.  Some of the bigger projects that we are talking about, our approach as government, is primarily based on PPP's and PFI's and we are looking at those issues very closely.

There has been a question with regard to the status of parastatals and the restructuring process.  In this regard Mr Speaker, we have put proposals before the Cabinet of this Province, on how we believe the restructuring of the KZT should proceed.  Cabinet actually still has to deliberate on those proposals and take a final decision.  I cannot elaborate on that, save to say that as a Department we have already made proposals to the Cabinet.

The question of how we as a Province can take advantage of the proposals that are presented to us by the EU Agreement, we are planning to have a workshop early next year and that workshop will be a very focused workshop.  It will begin to take and simplify the EU Agreement, which is a very comprehensive agreement and begin to look at the various sectors of the economy in this Province, from which we as a Province can benefit if we were to actually export and increase our capacity to export to the European Market.

We are going to be convening a workshop, probably at the beginning of the next year, some time in February or March, where we will be bringing in the SMME's, big industries and all exporters in this Province to inform them - because some of them do not know - that as from 1 January next year, the EU Agreement will be coming into effect.  We wish to begin to indicate to them the opportunities that are being presented by this agreement.  So our intention is not just to view this agreement simply as a document, but to assist manufacturers and exporters to know what opportunities there are for them.

Although I might sound like a Minister of good intentions, the hon Mr Wessel Nel, the one thing that I am sure of is that, maybe what we as a Province need right now, is such a Minister.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

MR M MABUYAKHULU: (Minister of Economic Development and Tourism):  Such a Minister would first of all ensure that we are all focused.  We actually refrain from having different agendas as used to be the case in the past.  That we actually stop speaking over each other.  That we definitely know areas we have to focus on to generate growth in this economy.

Whatever we have said here, Mr Speaker, we have made it very clear that we are not interested in more policies, and we are not interested in producing more laws.  We will only do that if it becomes necessary to implement some of the thoughts and the strategies we are employing.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

MR M MABUYAKHULU: (Minister of Economic Development and Tourism):  I do not understand why the hon member believes that we are still Ministers of good intentions and promises because clearly, what we are saying to this hon member, is that if we all work together, then we can ensure that we actually fast-track some of these big projects.  Some of them rely on us negotiating with National Government and indeed, we are doing that.  As a result of that I have created a special directorate in the Ministry that investigates some of these special projects to try to fast-track them so that I as the Minister, can directly deal with those issues on a day to day basis.

We have gone beyond the question of intentions.  Of course, we can call them intentions until they are fulfilled, but I think we rather need a Minister of intentions than not having any intentions at all.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

MR M MABUYAKHULU: (Minister of Economic Development and Tourism):  The question of the statistics in Gauteng - and I am touching on this, Mr Speaker, because I believe it is quite relevant - the hon Volker has actually quoted many statistics and those statistics actually intend to show, firstly, that as a Province, we are contributing 15% of GDP, whereas we have a larger population compared to Gauteng.  Gauteng has 1.2 million people less than this Province and yet, they are contributing 38%.

I want hon members, when they actually make comparisons, that they compare apples with apples and they do not compare apples with bananas, because if they do that, I have a problem.  First and foremost, we all know that Gauteng, through the National Party was the hub of this country and it has all the necessary infrastructure.  To change our situation is not going to happen overnight.  Therefore, if you look in terms of the per capita expenditure and per capita income, these are two different matters.  So you can therefore come to a conclusion based on the wrong statistics.  I would urge the hon member, I respect him, I know he has studied the statistics, but I would like him to go back and refresh his memory on this.

I am now going to address Mr Rajbansi's issues.  Let me go to one of the two issues before closing.  The one issue that I think was also raised was what are we doing with the SMME's, together with the question of the LRA.

The issue of the SMME's, I covered it yesterday quite extensively.  My approach is that we do need to have a re-think that in terms of the support measures that we introduce, that we move away from the non-financial support measures into measures where we are able to ensure that we deliberately close the gap that exists in the market.  Yes, we do have institutions.  Yes, we do have measures that have been set up at national level, but I can simply say that there are gaps in those measures.  We have to go back to the drawing board, not only in this Province, but also in the National Government.  It is not only a problem affecting us, as KwaZulu-Natal.  Even my colleagues from other provinces are also identifying that there are gaps in the measures that we actually employ for the support of the SMME's.  We do need that basket of measures, which is why I will even go into the question of financial support, because so far we have been looking mainly at the non-financial support part of it.  So it does need a re-think.

The question of the LRA, let us not actually take it too far.  It has been appreciated by the office of the President and the Minister of Labour has already made an announcement on it and some changes have already been introduced to ensure that where there have been complexities for the SMME's, that those are actually being reviewed.  Labour, in this instance as well, has actually come to the party.  So I do not think we should actually refer to that issue as a major issue.

The question of the 250,000 people who are leaving.  I do not want us to believe that they are genuinely leaving precisely because they have no jobs.  The people who are leaving this country, the statistics also indicate that some people who actually registered to leave, left and have come back and they were doing so to try and actually ring alarm bells and to force this government into a particular direction, in particular, National Government.

The point is we are going to build this economy with our own people.  People who are patriotic, people who are vigilant, people who have an interest in us developing the economy in this country because they have no-where to go.  But we are not saying any person who is skilled is not important; he must also be part of this country, of nation-building and the building of this country.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

MR M MABUYAKHULU: (Minister of Economic Development and Tourism):  This question that has been raised about the dry ports.  What are we trying to achieve?  I think it is a direct question.  Through this notion of having a dry port in Mooi River, we hope to achieve a number of things.  The first and foremost is that Mooi River  Textiles has closed down in Mooi River, which was the major pillar of the economy of the town.  So therefore we think it is important that we must be able to create another entry, another anchor to stimulate the manufacturing base that will actually ensure that the economy is revived.  But over and above that, we believe it is in the interests of our relationship with Gauteng who are using our ports, to actually explore the marketing of their products.  Therefore we must make it cost-efficient for them to do so.

Secondly, we believe that if we do that, we will then be encouraging downstream activity investment to take place in Mooi River itself.  We are thinking of a dry dock that will have a customs and excise.  Therefore that paperwork will be done there.  While the paperwork will be done, the trucks will only load there and then they will actually drop there and go back to Gauteng.  We will then use Spoornet to transport it from there to the harbour, with the paperwork and everything.  It will therefore make our port in Durban much more efficient and it will reduce the delays that are experienced in Durban.  But it will also help us with the question of car accidents, which are caused by heavy duty trucks between Howick and Mooi River and Durban.  So we think that there is a package of positive spin-offs by this question of the dry dock.

Let me conclude, Mr Speaker, by saying, I believe that the issues that have been raised around the question of the Sharks Board and the relationship with ORI and the KwaZulu-Natal Nature Conservation Services, are matters that we will go into at the Department.  We have no problem in terms of looking at those matters closely.  However, I am not in a position to comment on whether we can actually now institute an investigation, but I think I have tackled those issues for consideration and we will come back to the members.  I must thank members really for debating the issue and say, I hope that the interest that has been showed by the members in the debate will be reflected when we debate the budget votes.

THE SPEAKER:  We move on to Item 8.4 on the Order paper.  The debates on the Department of Agriculture and Environmental Affairs.  To start the debate I have Mr E S Mchunu who has eight minutes.

8.3	DEBATE ON THE REPORT BY THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE AND ENVIRONMENTAL AFFAIRS IN TERMS OF RULE (9)3.

MR E S MCHUNU:  Thank you Mr Speaker.  The day before yesterday the hon Minister made a comment that his report would probably come last as it always happens.  And indeed it did.  This in a way does reinforce quite a worrying perception that agriculture still comes last - not just last but very last - both in terms of reporting debates and in everything.

It also reinforces the perception that in our thinking, in our prioritisation that the same thing does happen, unfortunately this comes up to the level of government, of putting agriculture at the tail end all the time.  That attitude should change and it should start here.  That will help a lot.

I support the Ministers remarks on the importance of agriculture and its potential in this Province.  One can only add to what the Minister said yesterday.  For emphasis agriculture has a key role in:
	uplifting the lives of the people in this country and clearly in this Province;

	narrowing the gap between the rich and the poor;

	agriculture has a key role to play in dealing with high unemployment and hunger in rural and urban areas;

	absorbing and occupying a large rural population to and with work.

Agriculture should actually be relied upon by both government and the masses.

These issues that I have raised are confirmed by researchers, experts in agricultural economics and government agencies here and abroad but are also confirmed by the same are the following;

	that we as a Province, we still grade lowest as a country in terms of regarding agriculture as having a very high potential in dealing with the issues that I have raised, and that is very unfortunate;

	also confirmed is that agriculture accounts for only 0.5% instead of 15% of the GDP;

	that the industry absorbs only 14% instead of an estimate of something like 25% in countries with similar potential.

This is something that we need to make all efforts to correct.

This is then the context within which we should implement, analyse and evaluate Xoshindlala and other programmes of both this Department and other departments, as we try to meet our challenges.
 
What then are the challenges that arise from our wanting to make a contribution to Xoshindlala and other programmes.  The first thing that becomes our challenge is to unlock unused agricultural land both in our tribal areas and State land - the Minister dealt with his intentions and those of his Department with regard to the State land - which is thousands of hectares.  We need to do this even if we do not immediately have all the money at our disposal.  We need to unlock this agricultural land, identify it and think of ways and means of using it.

The second thing we need to do is to mobilise and encourage people to think agriculture across the whole Province.  Unfortunately, people still do not necessarily think agriculture.  I am glad that quite a number of the members here when debating economic development and tourism in the economic and tourism debate did make mention of agriculture.  That indicates the need for fusing these ideas.

We need to encourage people to think agriculture quite a lot.  An additional challenge then arises, that of mobilising NGOs, CBOs and other interest groups, to play their own particular role in agriculture, including the Amakhosi, the iziNduna and communities.

The other challenges we need to unpack is the concept of emerging farmers.  We do need to say at some stage that they have emerged.  Here they are and this is what they are doing.  They cannot be emerging one year, second year, emerging third year for five years for ten years.  We need to unpack this and identify a group of them and say these ones we want to prepare in a kind of interventionist manner.

It is true that when you think of commercial farmers it is white.  When you think emerging farmers it is African.  When you think of farmers in general it is Indian.  We need to stop this kind of attitude.  The people out there have capabilities which can be identified and we can really literally assist these people.  The other challenge is that, the Minister did indicate his efforts in amassing information and getting money, to help the people out there.  We appreciate his efforts and in particular we appreciate the manner in which it was put by the Minister.  It was presented in a manner which does not seek to exaggerate achievements and we appreciate that.  There was no arrogance and that is really appreciated.

THE SPEAKER:  The hon member is left with a minute.

MR E S MCHUNU:  The other challenge is to maximise our successes and show-case them and this can only happen if we really take a very serious look in terms of co-ordinating with other departments.  In particular with land affairs.  We do need to demonstrate our willingness and practically our co-ordination with that particular Department and other departments as has been mentioned.  

I have two requests to the hon Minister.  The first one is that we need to look at the way that we use resources, both human and otherwise.  I am saying this because there is an allegation, Mr Minister, through the Speaker, there is an allegation of corruption and misuse of offices of agriculture at Ixopo, and it is a matter that we need to look at very seriously.

There is also a need for us to look at gender.  I commend the Minister for the way in which he has dealt with gender in his Department.

THE SPEAKER:  The time is up, hon member.  Thank you.

MR E S MCHUNU:  Thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

THE SPEAKER:  I will now call upon hon member Mr Mackenzie, who has got seven minutes.

MR M M MACKENZIE:    Baba Somlomo neNdlu ehlonishwayo.  Ngiyalibonga lelithuba ukuba ngethule okwami izinto engizozethula zithintana nohlelo olwalungiswa ngendlela esiyijwayele enhle kabi uNgqongqoshe u-Singh mhla uthula la izolo imininingwane ethintana nezindaba zokulima.

TRANSLATION:  Mr Speaker, and the hon House.  I am grateful for this opportunity to say what I have to say.  What I am going to say concerns the programme which was rectified in a very gratifying way, and in a way which has become customary for him, the hon Minister Singh.  Yesterday he gave us details regarding issues of agriculture.  T/E

I have some very real concerns with regard to agriculture in this Province.  We have been given a very comprehensive plan as to how it can best be organised.  There is a framework that has been well thought out by the Department of Agriculture and the Minister.  However, the implementation of the plan depends on a whole lot of associated factors, such as the economics that are prevalent at the time.

I want you to think in terms of the big problem that is going to come our way very, very shortly and that is the increasing number of retrenched people from their jobs up in Gauteng and surrounds.  KwaZulu-Natal has a very large percentage of these people who will be returning home, not to jobs, but they will be returning home because they have no jobs.  Agriculture is going to have to move in and try and feed them and occupy them and re-instil some faith in the future for them.

It is asking an awful lot to add a socio-political and a socio-economic factor onto agriculture and all that that implies.  Firstly, I know Agriculture, at the moment, is trying its best through extension to impart economics of land use.  But we must remember that there is a huge lack of resources pertaining to land use and we expect a farmer who has been used to subsistence farming to elevate to commercial agriculture when there are no natural resources, or economic resources that are able to be used to underpin his or her efforts.

There is a strong suggestion that forms of storage be encouraged in rural areas.  In times of old, inqolobane [a barn] was regarded as vital for the security and safety of food for the whole family in times of need and want.  We need to go back and look at that.  But we can only store grains.  Therefore, may I suggest that the Department of Agriculture, through the Minister, look at the intensive extension advice on the production of grains that are storable.

We also need extension to be able to tell farmers of the route to take with regard to marketing.  If a land user is asked to use his land economically, he or she will only do so when a market is available.  Having farmed for 40 years myself, I can tell you that you fight against weather and pests and weeds and bank managers and markets.  If you have not got all your ducks in a row, you end up losing all that you worked for.  Farming is not easy.  Land use is not easy.  If we are going to elevate our people into efficient and successful commercial farmers, we need to look very carefully at the accumulation of resources that can give them the necessary confidence for them to do their job correctly.

A further suggestion for consideration, which I know has been picked up in part already by the Department of Agriculture, is to increase the number of projected rural processing plants.  I do know of two in train, but we need to increase this number, we need to have rural processing plants as opposed to urban based ones, because if they are rural then you will stop urban drift and urban drift is caused by the fact that poverty is driving people towards the cities where there is a hope of being able to feed a family.  It inevitably ends up in squatter camps with the sloth and the filth that automatically is able to accompany that.

THE SPEAKER:  Ilungu elihloniphekile selisele nomzuzu owodwa.  [The hon member has one minute left].

MR M M MACKENZIE:  Ndabezitha.  We have the European Union dumping on our doorstep, and this is undermining our commercial farmers.  How can a commercial farmer fight all those things that I was talking about, as well as dumping?

I will ask that the Department of Agriculture try and work towards providing a blueprint for economic survival in land use.  There I believe we should be able to implement the plan.  We have a very efficient framework that has been put up and inside that framework, let us get on and do something, d-o do something.  Ndabezitha.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  I now call upon hon member Rev Ngcobo for three minutes.

REV N W NGCOBO:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  Among the many valid and wise points that the hon Minister spoke about yesterday, was that of job creation.  That point really touched my heart because I believe and I am convinced that unemployment is the main cause of crime in this country, especially here in KwaZulu-Natal.  Mr Speaker, unemployment creates hunger and the consequence of hunger is crime because everybody fails to control the hungry stomach.

Believe me, Mr Speaker, that most of the local farmers are no longer keeping animals like goats, sheep and cattle as before.  Nor are they planting vegetables, crops and mealies because of the continual stock theft of animals and theft of local produce.  Alternatively, sugar-cane is planted but it is not enough.  Ngoba nalokhu okunye abangasakulimi umphakathi uyakudinga.  Uma ngikhuluma lapha Mhlonishwa Somlomo ngabalimi, ngikhuluma ngabalimi abamhlophe kuphela engicabanga ukuthi u-Minister ohloniphekile mhlawumbe enomnyango wakhe angawenza amasu okuthi basizakale nalababalimi abamnyama abancanyana abazamayo nabo ukukhula.

Kulukhuni ukuthi bakhule ngoba bakhelene namaplazi lawa amakhulu abamhlophe, noma bethi bafuna ukuthenga bavele bathi laba amamhlophe R1m.  Mhlawumbe uma kungenziwa amaplani okuthi bathenge ngengxenye...

THE SPEAKER:  Ilungu elihloniphekile lisele nomzuzu.  [The hon member has one minute left].

REV N W NGCOBO:  Babe benethuba lokuthi ngesikhathi esilandelayo baphinde bathenge.  Ukhulumile uMhlonishwa nangoXoshindlala kuyithuba elihle leli likaXoshindlala singejabula umangabe uzohamba yonke indawo afike naseMzumbe nakhona ikati lilele eziko.

TRANSLATION:  Because even the other things which are no longer sowed and reaped, the community still has a problem.  When I am talking here, Mr Speaker, about farmers, I am talking about white farmers only, and I think that the hon Minister should devise a strategy so that black farmers can also be assisted and the small subsistence farmers who are trying to get something to eat and to make a small profit.  

It is difficult for them to improve their lot because they live next to these huge farms that belong to the whites and even if they want to buy the farm, the whites just say R1 million.  Perhaps if a plan could be made for them to be able to buy in instalments...

Perhaps if they could have an opportunity so that in future they can buy.  The hon Minister spoke about the programme to combat hunger.  This is a good opportunity, this programme of combatting hunger.  We would be very glad if this opportunity could be broadened to all the different areas and if this opportunity could also come to the Umzumbe area.  Even there people are suffering from hunger.  T/E

Once again, thank you very much, Mr Minister, for your travelling with us to Ithala Game Reserve and other places of interest.  Thank you very much.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  I will now call upon hon member Mr Naicker, who has got six minutes.

MR S V NAICKER:  Mr Speaker, at the very outset, I would like the hon members in this House to look at this newsletter of the Department of Agriculture, on page 2, Transformation.

The hon Minister here, at a function, is receiving sorghum beer in a container, but perhaps I should remind the hon Minister that is not tradition and he is not sufficiently on his knees here and I am glad that the Chief Director is sitting here, he will also understand, he should have mentioned the khamba, not a container.  So, Mr Speaker, indeed, this is a demonstration of transformation, but it needs a little more.

Coming back to the debate, Mr Speaker, having heard the hon Mr Mchunu, he has made some very, very valuable contributions.  He has touched on a variety of issues which are of paramount importance and which have been spoken about during the last few years.

The hon Mr Mackenzie who is a farmer, spoke with all the experience at his command as far as farming is concerned and we must not, at any stage, underestimate the views that come from experience.  There is a difference between QBC and QBE.  In this issue, Mr Mackenzie speaks from QBE, Qualification by Experience.  We appreciate that.

I want to be very specific - this is merely a semi-debate - I do not expect any reply to whatever I am going to say.  The hon Minister, if anybody, understands the difference between bona fide farmers and subsistence farmers.

It is imperative that by now in the sixth year we should have on the table, as far as this Province is concerned, the number of subsistence farmers.  How many subsistence farmers have we got, how many emerging farmers have we got, what have we in actual fact contributed towards uplifting those subsistence and those emerging farmers.  Unfortunately, throughout the years, the only farming community that was considered were the bona fide farmers, not the subsistence farmers.  

AN HON MEMBER:  INTERJECTION.

MR S V NAICKER:  On the other hand, Mr Speaker, tragically, land issues are still bogged with the national department, but the Minister had made a statement here about the 80,000 hectares of land that is available.  But perhaps, in consultation with your counterpart at national level, there has to be something genuinely specific about what is intended to uplift those farmers.

Coming back to the environmental issue, Mr Speaker, the hon Minister also over-lapped on environment and he has made a statement here.  I want to make this comment that years after the democratization of South Africa, the country is still divided in two.  This again comes back to poverty, this comes back to the improvement of the quality of life in which we are all involved. White first world co-existed with a third world poverty-stricken black majority.

Only one in three South Africans have electricity, the remainder burn wood, coal and paraffin to cook food and heat their homes.  There is therefore a serious problem in achieving an environmentally friendly national system for energy purposes, which comes within the ambit of the hon Minister, particularly the rural population.  The rural population is barely a part of the national economy in many instances.  So therefore, even from national level, the rural issues must be considered.

Our debate might be, Mr Speaker, in its infant stages.  I say might be in its infant stages, but is it in its infant stages?  We are in the sixth year at the moment.

THE SPEAKER:  The hon member is left with a minute.

MR S V NAICKER:  We cannot continuously experiment.  I also want to appeal to the hon Minister - he knows very well about the various revolutions of different countries, he has had the opportunity to go into many countries - that if perhaps during our annual budget, or even before that, some report be given to Parliament with regards to those visits.  What has been established in different parts of the world relating to agriculture and what best we can do, together with those countries, to uplift our entire Province agriculture wise.  I thank you very much, Mr Speaker.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  I will now call upon hon member Miss Thakur for five minutes.

MISS S THAKUR:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  I want to thank the hon Minister of Agriculture for his address and will concentrate on the Department's strategic plan with respect to their vision, their mission and to their envisaged outcome that is unlocking the agricultural potential, especially pertaining to agri-industries.

Our Province does have a well developed commercial sector, but also a predominantly subsistence-oriented sector in the rural areas.

The agricultural opportunities in KwaZulu-Natal must be exploited because of our many strengths in KwaZulu-Natal, such as sugar-cane, vegetable, fruit, livestock and dairy farming.

I was very encouraged to hear the hon Minister say that the likely issuing of power of attorney to the Department of Agriculture, would see 275,000 hectares of State land in the Province being allocated to emerging farmers and that between 1,000 and 14,000 emerging farmers could be settled as commercial farmers.

This certainly ushers our Province into a new stage for agricultural and rural economic development and it is for this very reason that I pray this goes through.

This will also pose many challenges to the Department, I believe, such as:

1.	To mobilize farmer initiative;

2.	To respect the farmer's pioneering spirit;

3.	To boldly explore effective forms for the realisation of public ownership in rural areas;

4.	To constantly improve rural ownership structures;  and

5.	Most importantly, to persist in market-oriented rural reform.

The objective therefore is to establish a rural economic structure.

There will be many advantages if a land contract relationship is stabilised because farmers will be inspired to make long term plans.  It will also provide conditions for rational distribution of work and structural readjustment in rural areas.

Those people who have moved away from rural or farming areas may come back because their minds would be at ease, especially the youth.

The huge problem of land lying waste in some localities while farmers elsewhere do not have enough land, will be solved.

Advancing industrialisation of agriculture is a major step for furthering rural reform and development, in terms of the fact that farmers' income will improve and of course we will have increasing rural employment.

Our Provincial Department of Agriculture, must encourage the development of a commodity economy of high yield, high quality, high efficiency agriculture.  There is of course a definite need for agriculture/industry/trade integration, as well as production/processing/marketing integration.  These, of course, will improve the quality of the products, they will lower the costs and they will enhance competition.

We also need to identify products for industrialisation, as I have mentioned before.  This will of course quicken the pace of our poverty alleviation efforts drastically.

Hence, I believe that it is only industrialisation, and this is the only way to transform the traditional planned rural economy into a market economy and move away from an extensive to an intensive mode of economic growth.

Finally, of course we need more women farmers in KwaZulu-Natal.  I know that the Land Bank offers awards for outstanding women farmers and women do excel in all provinces, except KZN.  This of course may be due to the fact that women face problems of land ownership, although they may have the potential.

THE SPEAKER:  The hon member is left with a minute.

MISS S THAKUR:  Hence, our hon Minister of Agriculture must ensure that the farming potential of women must be encouraged.  Maybe the Xoshindlala Project will see to this.  Of course, solely because women in the rural areas are breadwinners and they do know a lot about subsistence farming.  Thank you.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Hear!  Hear!  Up the MF women power.

THE SPEAKER:  Order, Mr Rajbansi.  I will now call upon the hon member Inkosi Gumede, who has got six minutes.  Thank you.

INKOSI S H GUMEDE: (Whip):  First and foremost I would like to commend the hon Minister for his enlightening report, which deals with ways and means of effectively bringing government closer to the people by means of planning with the affected communities, thus adopting a bottom-up, rather than a top-down approach, which is normally followed in South Africa where things are done for the people, not with the people.

It has become fashionable in our country to dictate what is good for communities, instead of reasoning with the communities.  I could not agree more with the Minister's report, which says agriculture should in fact be given the first priority in KwaZulu.  We all know, without any shadow of doubt, Mr Speaker, that agriculture is the backbone of each and every nation.  Without it, all nations will simply perish.

In his report the hon Minister mentioned the unlocking of  agricultural potential and also a development trust to uplift rural communities.  The problem is, Mr Speaker, as we all know, that we, as disadvantaged blacks, did not, and do not have facilities that would in fact enable us to deal with agricultural matters effectively.  It does not necessarily mean that black people do not know how to deal with agriculture, but the problem is that they are prohibited by the fact that they do not have the necessary material and equipment.

So I, therefore, commend the Minister for suggesting that as from today, his Department will be in a position to organise companies that will in fact provide tractors to the disadvantaged communities in order for them to deal extensively with agricultural matters.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

INKOSI S H GUMEDE: (Whip):  Another thing that should be borne into our own cognisance is that in this country, blacks do not have the facility simply to go to the banks and to be granted loans in order to buy farms where they can simply practise agriculture.  Instead, they are required to produce securities, knowing very well that blacks do not have any security.  As a result of that, they do not have the opportunity to buy farms.  I would therefore urge the Minister to do something in order to enable and to facilitate the process in order for the disadvantaged black people to buy farms as well.  I am sure if that could happen, our blacks would be in a position to deal with that matter effectively.

The establishment of food processing plants.  We know for a fact that, like for instance, where I come from, Makhatini Flats, people are big producers of cane, but where do they take that cane to?  Either to Pongola or Mtubatuba, a distance of about 200 to 300 kilometres.  By the time they reach their destination, there is no return for the farmers.  So we would encourage the Department to see to it that the establishment of these facilities, and their proximity to the farming fraternity should be encouraged.

THE SPEAKER:  The hon member is left with a minute.

INKOSI S H GUMEDE: (Whip):  Awu, awu, kahle mfanakithi.    [UHLEKO]  [hang on my friend].  [LAUGHTER]  I therefore commend the Minister for the ...

MR W U NEL: (Whip):  On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

THE SPEAKER:  Order!  Hon member?

MR W U NEL: (Whip):  On a point of order, is it parliamentary for one Inkosi to say to another Inkosi umfana wakithi. [UHLEKO]  [Inkosi, my age mate].  [LAUGHTER]

INKOSI S H GUMEDE: (Whip):  Well, it means that he is my age-mate.  [LAUGHTER]  I would also welcome the notion of the accountability of services to the communities because what has happened in the past, these extension officers were simple and misguided missiles.  They would not simply take heed of what the complaints of the people were.  As long as they are held accountable to the communities, that will definitely solve the problem.  I definitely give accolades to the Minister just for that.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

INKOSI S H GUMEDE: (Whip):  The point I wanted to make is that if the Minister can appeal to the farming community because people are being exploited there.  

THE SPEAKER:  The hon member's time is up.

INKOSI S H GUMEDE: (Whip):  They are requested to start work as early as five o'clock and to knock off as late as 8 o'clock, without any remuneration.  Thank you, sir.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you, thank you, Inkosi.

INKOSI S H GUMEDE: (Whip):  Wongipha kusasa mnewethu.  [You will give it to me tomorrow, my brother].  [LAUGHTER]

THE SPEAKER:  Uma nje Inkosi ilikhulekele kahle iyolithola ithuba.  [If the Inkosi follows the right channels, he will get an opportunity].  Okay, I will now call upon the hon member Miss Gcabashe, who has got four minutes.

MRS L A GCABASHE:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  I congratulate the Minister for tabling a detailed report on the departmental vision, plans and programmes.

The Minister indicated that the report focuses on agriculture, but I would like to touch on a few points relating to environment.

We all know that for a long time our people have been denied the use of land, clean water, fisheries, minerals, wild life and clean air.  The workers' lives were placed at severe risk because of dangerous practices and substances that were inadequately monitored.  In general, existing environmental policies have not been able to curb the inefficient and wasteful use of water, energy and raw material and high levels of air and water pollution.

Somlomo njengoba sike sabona lapha ngasendaweni yeNkosi uMlaba kwaXimba la kunefemu khona okuthiwa i-Thor sizwile futhi sisezwa namanje nangasendaweni yaseThekwini eyakhele i-Wentworth lapho umphakathi wakhona uhlushwa yizona lezinkinga.

TRANSLATION:  Speaker, as we have seen in the areas of Inkosi Mlaba, which is the KwaXimba area, there is a firm there which is known as Thor.  We have also heard of the place in the Durban area which is known as the Wentworth area.  We know that the community there has got the same problems.  T/E

Mr Speaker, our people have the right to a decent quality of life through sustainable use of resources.  To achieve this, we must work towards an equitable access to natural resources, a safe and healthy living and working environment and be involved in a participatory decision-making process with regards to environmental issues.  We also need to empower our communities to manage their natural environment.

Development Strategies

Development strategies must incorporate environmental consequences in the course of planning.  Measures such as land reform, provision of basic infrastructure, housing and targeted rural assistance and the maintenance of food security, should ultimately reduce the pressure on the environment.

Our strategies should indicate systems of waste management with the emphasis on preventing pollution and reducing waste through direct controls and on increasing the capacity of the citizens to monitor and prevent dumping of toxic waste.

Promotion of Partnership with Communities

The participation of communities in the environmental education programmes in order to increase environmental consciousness amongst our youth is vitally important

THE SPEAKER:  The hon member is left with a minute.

MRS L A GCABASHE:  Thank you.  To co-ordinate the environmental education with the education policy to empower communities and this government to act on environmental issues can never be over-emphasized.  Baba Somlomo isiyabonga intombi kaMngadi.  [Mr Speaker, the Mngadi maiden thanks you].

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

THE SPEAKER:  Siyabonga.  I will now call upon hon member Mrs Scott, who has got six minutes.

MRS B SCOTT:  Mr Speaker, hon members of this House.  Like the previous speaker, I note that none of the Minister's report was devoted to the state of conservation and environmental affairs in this Province, but I will be devoting my topic to that.

Following on from my previous speech on the Economics debate, tourism has the potential to be the single biggest provider of employment in this Province and KwaZulu-Natal has to have some of the best conservation areas in the country, if not the world.  Not only do we have some beautiful private and public-owned game parks, but we are blessed with the Drakensberg mountains and a coastline where World Heritage Sites are going to be located.  In short, if we are serious about sustainable economic growth and development in KwaZulu-Natal, this government needs to get serious about conservation and environmental affairs.

Now I would like to turn to my favourite topic, the Maputoland Coastal Reserve.  In April 1996, nearly four years ago to date, members of the Conservation Portfolio Committee did an in-loco inspection of the Maputoland Coastal Reserve, and were staggered to find the blatant abuse and degradation of this sensitive, pristine environment by none other than government agencies themselves.  The Reserve is home to four police beach camps and one army camp at the mouth of Kosi Bay, which are none other than glorified holiday camps for senior policemen and generals.  Also found in the Reserve is a health camp, for the exclusive use of white doctors, as a pay off for working in black rural areas.  And this is what was told to a committee at a public hearing by a white doctor himself.

Over the years, Ministers at both national and provincial level, Premiers, you name it, have been taken into the Reserve to witness this abuse first hand.  All were unanimous in their disapproval and outrage, and undertakings were given at the highest level that the police and the army camps would be relocated outside the Reserve.

This was a hollow victory for people like myself who actually takes the protection of conservation areas in this Province very seriously.  Virtually nothing has been achieved.  There are some minor stirrings at the outermost Mabibi Police Camp, but beyond that, all the other camps are still in place and thriving.

AN HON MEMBER:  That is disgraceful.

MRS B SCOTT:  And if any members are in the area over the Christmas season, you are guaranteed to witness policemen and generals with their families having a marvellous holiday at these camps at taxpayers' expense.  Not only have the army not moved out of Kosi Bay, they have actually renovated it, and this was done after receiving the directive to move out, from their own National Deputy Minister of Defence.

It is much more serious than that.  The Conservation Portfolio Committee received a solid undertaking from the previous Director-General of the Conservation Department, Mr Robin Raubenheimer, that there would be an immediate moratorium on PTO's issued within the boundaries of the Reserve.  I am very anxious to find out whether this promise was carried out, because during my last visit to Kosi Bay in February this year, I was appalled to see the mushrooming of developments within the boundaries of the Reserve.  One man even had the gall to build a double storey house.  In this instance, the development was so obvious that the Conservation Services managed to get the offender prosecuted in court.  But what of the less obvious developments?

It is totally unfair to expect officials of the Conservation Service to police and manage this area alone.  Without the necessary political will, and tough action taken by the Provincial Minister of Environmental Affairs, together with the Minister of Traditional Affairs and Safety and Security, the Maputoland Coastal Reserve is going to be destroyed.  The police and the army holiday-makers must get out, and get out now.  The time for negotiations is over.  I also call on the Provincial Minister of Health to immediately close down the health camp, which will set an example to other members of the Provincial Cabinet, and hopefully encourage them to get their act together.  The Minister of Environmental Affairs is also fortuitously the Minister of Agriculture.  How easy would it be for this hon Minister to close down the agricultural site on the banks of one of Kosi's lakes?

The poverty-stricken communities living within the reserve have waited years for the promised eco-tourism developments which will provide them with much-needed jobs and resources.  But these developments have not materialised, and the people continue to go hungry.  How are tourist developments within the reserve to succeed with marauding, drunken police officers dancing naked over German female tourists innocently lying on the beach.  These are all documented cases.

THE SPEAKER:  The hon member is left with a minute.

MRS B SCOTT:  The scars of tyres from army manoeuvres in heavy vehicles can still be seen today in a swampy section of the Reserve.  It is really quite disgusting that this kind of behaviour can be condoned, and if it is not condoned, then someone needs to tell me why these people and their holiday camps are still there.

How can we talk of quality and democracy in the new South Africa, if wealthy members of the Chamber of Mines are permitted to build a holiday camp at the Kosi Bay mouth, and pay nothing for the use and enjoyment of this prime holiday site, when ordinary South African citizens cannot experience the same benefits, even at a cost.  It is generally known that the Chamber of Mine's log cabin on the mouth received the protection of the former Chief Minister of KwaZulu - but is that decision binding on the present government which has committed itself to fair and transparent governance?

The Democratic Party calls for the immediate revival of the Maputoland Coastal Reserve as a serious conservation concern for both the new portfolio committee and the Ministry.

THE SPEAKER:  The hon member's time is up.

MRS B SCOTT:  Thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!  INTERJECTIONS.

THE SPEAKER:  I will now call upon hon member Mrs Downs, for four minutes.  Thank you, she is not in the Chamber.  I will now call upon the hon member Mr Nxumalo, who has got four minutes.

MR S N NXUMALO:  Mr Speaker, first of all, I congratulate Minister Singh and his Department for the work they are doing.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

MR S N NXUMALO:  This is what we as parliamentarians need to take to the people to show them what our government is doing.

Agriculture is very important to us, because everything we eat comes from agriculture, it comes from the soil.  This is the only department which is exclusive for rural people, therefore this is a very important department.  I salute the Premier for creating such a department in our Province.  Baba Mantshinga.  

Agriculture has been viewed negatively in the past.  Colleagues will remember that during our schooling, a student who misbehaved in the classroom was ordered to work in the garden as a form of punishment.

Children who did not do well at school or dropped out were forced to be herd boys, looking after cattle out there.  Even today, herd boys are school drop-outs.  All that has been mentioned, contributes towards the people regarding agriculture at a very low standard, or something that should be dealt with after everything has been done, as we are doing here today, debating it last.

I congratulate this Department for campaigns like Xoshindlala, which tries to revive the agriculture in our people's mind.  It is encouraging to read about so many projects that were funded during this year.

I appeal to you, Minister, and your Department, to devise a grand strategy to turn around the world by making the countryside more attractive and for rich people versus the urban.  People in the urban areas will be poor because they will have to get up every morning to go to work, whereas in the countryside they will go out and reap their fields.

Lastly, kukhona amahovisi lawa abekhona ezolimo athe chithi sakalala ebesazi ukuthi ezikhathini zakudala ebesebenza kahle.  Okumanje lama ofisi asenenkinga sekukhona ukudideka emiphakathini ngoba imisebenzi ebiyenziwa ilama ofisi ayisakwazi ukuyenza njalo imiphakathi uma ifika izocela usizo batshelwa ngokuthi izimali azikho zokwenza lomsebenzi soze sibonelwe ihovisi laseShowe.

Belikwazi ukusiza abantu abafuna amanzi, abafuna ukubiyelwa kwezingadi zabo...

THE SPEAKER:  Ilungu elihloniphekileyo lisalelwe umzuzu.  [The hon member is left with a minute].

MR S N NXUMALO:  Okumanjenje lababantu abasakwazi ukuthola usizo.  Abanye abantu abebethola usizo ilaba abalima izimoba abebekwazi ukuthi imigwaqo lena ephakathi komoba igugulwe bakwazi ukudonsa umoba iphumele ngaphandle, bakwazi ukuyoyidayisa baphile.

Okokugcina sengivala Mr Speaker ilena yokuthi socela ukuthi uNgqongqoshe agqugquzele lolobumbano ekufuyeni, ukulima senza ukuthi izindawo lezi esihlala kuzona abantu bakwazi ukuthi bafuye izinto zokuziphilisa ezindaweni abahlala kuzona kunokuthi bathenge amaplazi lawa abizayo amakhulu.  

TRANSLATION:  Hon Minister Mantshinga, lastly, there are these offices for agriculture which are all over the place, which we all know that in times past these offices worked very well.  Today, these offices have problems.  There is confusion in the community now because the tasks which were previously performed by these offices is no longer able to be performed by them.  When the community arrives to ask for things, they are told that there is no money to do the tasks, the things will have to be borrowed from the Eshowe office.

Would it be possible to assist these people that are asking for water, who want to have their gardens fenced ...

At the moment these people are no longer to receive assistance.  Some of the people who previously received assistance were those people who were farming sugar cane.  These people previously received assistance by having the roads between the sugar cane graded.  The sugar cane was able to be carted from there to places outside, they were able in this fashion to sell the sugar cane and make a living.

Lastly, in closing, Mr Speaker, I want to talk about an issue, in fact it is a request to the Minister to ensure that there is unity amongst the people who have livestock.  Also that people must be encouraged to farm the land which they have so that the places where the people live they will be able to have animals which can be of assistance to them.  This will assist them to survive in the areas where the people live so that they can afford to buy the farms which are very expensive.  I am referring to the large farms.  T/E

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  I will now call upon hon member Mrs Ngcobo, who has got six minutes.

MRS L G NGCOBO:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  If one were to ask me to pick out any one particular department during that apartheid era as being the most culpable, I would pick out, with little hesitation, the farming industry.  In considering the present day problems that continue to reflect darkly on this industry, I struggle to skim above that level of revulsion that I felt then for the farming industry.  I try even now to forget.  You see, Mr Speaker, my mental association with the farms and farmers was so well branded in my mind that I devoted large sections of my first book to this subject.  Farms and farming in the past put off most African people, so much so that even now, many people have failed to look on agriculture as the only saving grace on the road to development.

I give this personal testimony, Mr Speaker, because the Minister's report to this Legislature did so much to heal the historic wounds that many of us sustained during the past.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

MRS L G NGCOBO:  The initiatives that his Department have embarked on, beam a bright light of hope to rural people and emerging farmers.  In his many innovations, he is turning around the minds of our people at a time when some teachers still tell our young student farmers that they have no business in agricultural schools, because this is a white industry.  This Minister is sure to succeed with his multi-strategy approach which is bound to restore the confidence of the people in themselves and their rural capacity.

Agriculture has the potential to enrich this Province with the increase of agricultural production being forecast to reach three times its present level.  His Department, under his visionary leadership, might prove to be the one area that will one day get rid of rural poverty once and for all.

I applaud the formation of structures like the Agriculture Development Trust, the Xoshindlala programmes, the liming of acidic soils and the pooling of communities in agricultural clusters, making use of integrated agricultural systems.  More than all other innovations, I applaud the idea of adding value to the basic products that we produce.

Only when we go beyond production of our basic agricultural products, and begin to process them and manufacture new products, only then can we reap the benefits of our agricultural activities.  We should bottle and can some of our farm products in small home industries.  Home industries will be the backbone of the struggling masses.

AN HON MEMBER:  Hear!  Hear!

MRS L G NGCOBO:  In a country as rich in wild bees as ours is, we should teach our young people to culture bees.  This is an industry that should have a great potential in our Province.

Fruit thrives in our Province and there is no reason why we do not see fruit trees around every homestead in the rural areas.  If necessary, we need to assist them to grow fruit.  Although perhaps we need to solve the great problem of loose live stock that creates a problem in this area.  The potential and benefits of such a programme are phenomenal.  Such fruit could be sold commercially on a co-operative basis.  They could be bottled and made into fruit juice, over and above feeding their own families.  Similarly, there is no reason why we do not form milk co-operatives in a province that is prolific in cattle production.  I know in India, this has become a powerful instrument in the hands of the poor.  We can, in this Province do the same.  But I do know that our Minister will soon get round these problems and many more, to uplift the down-trodden masses.

In his many innovations, he is turning around the minds of our people.  That quantum leap that our people need to take with regard to things like agriculture.

THE SPEAKER:  The hon member is left with a minute.

MRS L G NGCOBO:  Agriculture, as the previous speaker, Mr Nxumalo, has indicated, got into a lot of difficulties in our minds, let alone in our physical bodies.  In our minds we turned against agriculture because of the pain and the suffering that we went through in this area.  It is marvellous to see a man like our Minister, who has the psychological strength to influence the thinking of our rural people so that they look on agriculture favourably.  Thank you, Mr Speaker.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  I will now call upon the hon member Mr Kubheka, who has got six minutes.

MR M A KUBHEKA:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  In his report, the Minister has raised a number of key and important issues in as far as the programmes of his Department are concerned.

One of the most important points is the emphasis being made on the need for proper planning before full scale implementation of the new programmes, particularly the Xoshindlala Campaign.  To ensure this I therefore wish to commend the hon Minister for the initiative taken to get approval from Treasury to roll over funds allocated to Xoshindlala to the next financial year.

This was important precisely because a lot still needs to be done to ensure progressive implementation and therefore sustainability of food security projects to be undertaken.

It will be important, hon Minister, to ensure that priority is given to building capacity of the beneficiaries, if we want to ensure that these projects are community-driven.  Therefore, continuous training of the employees, not only the beneficiaries of the Department, is important to ensure that they are development-oriented.  I am saying this precisely because we are aware of the tragic collapse of similar initiatives in some neighbouring countries as a result of lack of capacity on the part of the beneficiaries and the control by administration kind of approach on the part of the bureaucracy.  Ours is to create an enabling environment for people to be able to develop and improve their lives, not necessarily to develop the people.  Almost all projects are as a result of people's initiatives and not ours.

I will not dwell much on this because some of the potential problems are already being dealt with at the portfolio committee level.

Turning to the Agricultural State Land Disposal.  The redistribution or disposal of the Agricultural State Land in the Province will have to be handled properly.  It is not the first time that the power of attorney, that the Minister has referred to, to the Department of Agriculture will be issued by the National Minister of Land Affairs and Agriculture.  It was once issued, then withdrawn, and as we are speaking here today, the Department of Land Affairs is involved in the State Land Disposal projects in this Province, including the disposal of Agricultural State Land.

Without going into more details, let me point out, hon Minister, that it appears that the working relations between these two departments at a provincial level - that is the Agriculture and Land Affairs Department - are not good.  There is no joint planning on the approach to land reform programmes and agriculture or agriculture and land reform, whatever comes first.  You only have to attend the portfolio committee meeting where both these departments attend to witness this.  It is as if they are pulling in opposite directions. 

It is precisely because of this that more input needs to be made to the National Minister before the contents of the power of attorney to the Department of Agriculture are finalised.  During the last meeting of the portfolio committee we witnessed how the interaction was between the management of the Department of Agriculture and the Department of Land Affairs.  That is a cause for concern.  This might require the Provincial Minister and the portfolio committee to create an opportunity for both these departments to discuss this particular issue and reach a common understanding on how best to co-ordinate all the programmes.

Let me turn to the farm workers and labour tenants issue.  In his budget speech for the 1999/2000 financial year, the Minister indicated that 35% of the budget is allocated to commercial farmers only.  This is evident of government's commitment in ensuring the continued success of commercial agriculture.

It is with this understanding in mind, and the equal commitment to the welfare of the human resources in commercial agriculture -that is the farm workers and labour tenants - that the portfolio committee, during its last meeting resolved and actually established a sub-committee to deal with the on-going problem of the victimization of farm workers and daily evictions.

THE SPEAKER:  The hon member is left with a minute.

MR M A KUBHEKA:  That the hon Minister's report does not raise this as an issue, I hope, does not necessarily mean that the hon Minister does not care.  I thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  I will now give the Minister time to reply to the debate.  The suggested time, Mr Minister, is 10 minutes.  Thank you.

MR N SINGH: (Minister of Agriculture and Environmental Affairs):  Thank you very much, Mr Speaker.  I can assure the House that I will not take more than 10 minutes.  The manner in which I am going to respond to this particular report that I have presented is maybe not to refer to any specific member, but just to pick up on a few issues that were raised.  I value this opportunity where the members of this Legislature have exercised their right, in terms of the Constitution, to hold members of the Executive accountable for their action, or inaction.  This opportunity, in terms of the Rules of the House, provides us with a wonderful opportunity to highlight some of the activities within our Department and also to be blessed with the wisdom of members of this particular Legislature.

I want to thank all the members who contributed to this particular debate.  There were very, very constructive comments and suggestions that came from every single member.

As I indicated, and as the hon Mr Kubheka has indicated, this report has been quite specific in that I have just touched on two issues, the strategic plans that we have had, which involved Xoshindlala and the Trust and I have deliberately left out other issues, in the hope that I will have an opportunity at some later stage, probably early next year, to touch on environmental and conservation issues.

But notwithstanding that, I believe the contribution made by the hon Mrs Scott and the hon Mrs Gcabashe, on environmental issues, are important.  I have taken note of them and I hope that we do not raise these issues only in debates like this, but that we engage ourselves, as members of this Legislature, so that we have a clean environment at the end of the day.

Many members have alluded to the fact, including the hon Chairperson of the portfolio committee, whose contribution I value greatly, to the fact that agriculture has been given the last slot of the wonderful three days of debates that we have had.  I want to assure you that as long as I am the leader of this particular portfolio, and with members like we have on the portfolio committee, we will ensure that agriculture is not last in terms of the priority to economic development in our Province.

It is for that reason that this year, Mr Speaker, when budgetary  allocations were made, we came in for a windfall and an  additional allocation was made to the Department of Agriculture in order that we may execute some of the programmes.

The hon Inkosi Gumede and the hon Mr Mackenzie also indicated that agriculture should be treated with a lot of importance.

One of the issues that came up, is the question of land and land availability to emerging farmers.  The hon members who raised that are quite correct, because when it comes to availability of finance for farmers to purchase land, we are still experiencing difficulties and we really need to engage institutions like the Land Bank, which is a State-sponsored institution, although running on a commercial basis.  We need to approach institutions like Ithala, which is also State-sponsored, to see how we can develop mechanisms to provide easier access to people who want to acquire land, to try and develop systems where we look at the productive value of land, rather than looking at market values.  We will look at, instead of purchasing, probably long term leases, with an option to purchase, so that we give people an opportunity to till the soil, sell their products maybe in the first few years and accumulate capital so that eventually they can own these farms that we have on the market.  This is the direction that we need to take so that we can allow people to become owners of farms.

There was a lot of debate and comments during the debate of the hon Minister of Economic Development and Tourism on the airport issue.  I believe, Mr Speaker, that when it comes to the airport issue, probably all of us have been focusing on the importance of the airport as a passenger terminal.  We need now to move from it being a passenger terminal to being a freight terminal, and to that extent, the agricultural potential that we have in this Province and the products that can emerge from our farms, processed or unprocessed, can be flown out of these airports.  So we really need to start looking at how much freight these airports can handle and convince National Government that the King Shaka Airport is an absolute necessity for this Province in terms of economic development.

I was quite interested in the comments by one hon member, Mrs Ngcobo, about bees and the milk co-operatives.  These are two issues that I really was very impressed with when I was in India and in the UK.  When I was in the UK at the 150th Royal Agricultural Society, I met with the people involved in the bee industry; in the honey industry - and I was amazed at the types of products and by-products from honey that emerged and the type of income that it can generate.  So it is certainly an area that we are going to be forging relationships with people in the UK, we have already started doing that.

AN HON MEMBER:  Just do not get stung.

MR N SINGH: (Minister of Agriculture and Environmental Affairs):  We will not get stung.  You have mentioned milk co-operatives.  India is a shining example of the white revolution where Dr V Kurien spearheaded the white revolution and in some areas there are millions of people involved in co-operatives.  We were pleased when we were in India to note that Dr Kurien promised a donation of almost 100 million rupees, which translates into R14m, so that we can use the methods that he has developed and devised over a number of years in India and translate that here in KwaZulu-Natal.  This is another area of interaction that we are going to be following.

AN HON MEMBER:  INTERJECTION.

MR N SINGH: (Minister for Agriculture and Environmental Affairs):  Yes, that is another area we are looking at.  Buffalos, in fact, the hon Mr Naicker, who is not in the House and may I just add that the hon Rev Ngcobo did indicate that he will be leaving.  We have a report prepared on our India visit, a very comprehensive report and all the areas which we intend continuing interaction with the Indian Government are included in this report.  I first have to table it before Cabinet and then to the portfolio committee.

Labour problems have been touched on by some members and at some stage the portfolio committee and ourselves will really have to sit down and talk about this.  Although it really does not fall within the purview of the Department of Agriculture as such, probably the Department of Labour, but it is something that affects us directly.

So we really need to sit with people Kwanalu, we need to sit with other labour organisations, the portfolio committee and see how best, while we look at the development of emerging farmers, to evolve ways to develop our farm labourers because the farm labourers cannot be farm labourers all their lives.  We must also create opportunities for them because they have expertise in agriculture.  We must create opportunities for them to become farm owners some day.

In as much as you have bus co-operations and truckers now who are selling off their trucks and their buses to individual operators, this is the kind of opportunities we must give to our farm labourers.

The management of natural resources requires our very serious attention and the hon Mrs Gcabashe referred to that.

I am going to conclude, Mr Speaker, by touching on the matter referred to by Mrs Scott, and I want to assure this House that I will immediately investigate the matters that were raised by her.  There will be an immediate report, an investigation, but more important, there will be action.  I regret that there may be some people who may not have accommodation for their Christmas holidays because we may remove that privilege that is being granted to them.  I will immediately give attention to this matter and come back to the Legislature on this at a later stage.

Mr Speaker, thank you very much and thank you to all our colleagues for their wonderful inputs to this debate.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Minister, it is less than 10 minutes.  Thank you.

We have come to the end of today's Order Paper.  Maybe before we adjourn, ngifisa ukubonga kuwowonke amalungu abambe iqhaza kwimashi esibe nayo namhlanje, kusithokozisile ukubona amalungu enza lokhu nokuba abe ingxenye yomphakathi kuyinto enhle lokho.  Ngiyafisa ukubonga emalungeni ngalokho.

TRANSLATION:  I want to express my thanks to all the hon members who took part in the march which we held today.  We were very happy to see the members doing this because they were part of the community.  That is something which is very good.  I want to express my thanks to the members for this.  T/E

Maybe before we close I will ask the hon Premier if he has any announcements.  Thank you.

THE PREMIER:  Mr Speaker, I have no announcement to make.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Premier.  Then the House adjourns sine die.

	HOUSE ADJOURNED SINE DIE
	AT 12:25


	DEBATES AND PROCEEDINGS OF
	KWAZULU-NATAL PROVINCIAL LEGISLATURE

	FIRST SESSION
	SEVENTH SITTING - FIRST SITTING DAY
	WEDNESDAY, 8 DECEMBER 1999

THE HOUSE MET AT 13:42 IN THE LEGISLATIVE CHAMBER, ULUNDI.  THE SPEAKER TOOK THE CHAIR AND READ THE PRAYER.

THE SPEAKER:  The House resumes.

2.	OBITUARIES AND OTHER CEREMONIAL MATTERS

THE SPEAKER:  Ngifisa ukudlulisa ukuthi ilungu elihloniphekileyo isekela lika-Speaker uMnumzane Willies Mchunu uhanjelwe umntwana wakhe, bengizocela leNdlu ike ithi ukusukuma ihloniphe okwesikhashana.  [I want to announce that the hon Deputy Speaker, Mr Willies Mchunu's son passed away.  Can I request the hon members to rise].

Let us all rise for a moment.  

HON MEMBERS STAND

THE SPEAKER:  May his soul rest in peace.  Amen.

3.	ADMINISTRATION OF OATH OR AFFIRMATION

4.	ANNOUNCEMENTS BY THE SPEAKER

THE SPEAKER:  I would like to advise members that we might have a party this afternoon.  [LAUGHTER]  Well, fortunately we will have a party, a millennium party, this afternoon.  The details of it I will announce at the end of the session.  Thank you, hon members.


5.	ANNOUNCEMENT BY THE PREMIER

THE SPEAKER:  Hon the Premier?

THE PREMIER:  Mr Speaker, we would like to record as the Parliament of KwaZulu-Natal, our sadness at the untimely death of Mr Sdumo Mathe, who died in a car accident at Nongoma.  The deceased was a brother-in-law to His Majesty the King.  We record our condolences to his widow, his next of kin and also to His Majesty the King and his sister, the Queen of KwaMandlahla.

I have just been given this document here and I feel it is important to read it for the record.  It is a document received from the Provincial Commissioner, KwaZulu-Natal, on 8 December 1999.  It is addressed to Inkosi Nyanga Ngubane, the MEC for Safety and Security, KwaZulu-Natal.

	Collision, death of Mr Sdumo Mathe, Friday 3 December 1999.

	1.	On 4 December 1999, Mr Nathaniel Mngomezulu of Town Talk Furnishers in Nongoma was travelling between the KwaMandlahla Palace and the Nyokeni Palace when he noticed skid marks on the road.  He got out of his vehicle to investigate and followed the skid marks until he discovered a Nissan Sani in the ravine.

	2.	The body of Mr Sdumo Mathe, who was the advisor to the King, was found lying outside the vehicle.  The police were immediately summoned to the scene and Captain Maseko of Nongoma Police Station took charge of the investigation.

	3.	During the course of the next day it was reported to Commissioner Ngidi that Mr Sdumo Mathe was missing.  Commissioner Ngidi tasked members of the Police Air Wing and members of other specialised units to conduct a search of possible routes from Nongoma to Durban with a view to trying to locate Mr Mathe and his vehicle.

	4.	The investigations are currently being conducted by Superintendent Booysen and the post-mortem will be held on Thursday by Professor Dada.  The family has also acquired the services of a private pathologist to oversee the post-mortem.

	5.	On 7 December 1999, Mr Roets Boschoff, who is a civil engineer with the Forensic Science Laboratory, Captain Dolf Otto of the Pietermaritzburg Accident Response Unit and Inspector Murphy from the Durban Accident Response Unit were still conducting investigations at the scene of the accident and a detailed report will follow.

	6.	Director Bala Naidoo and Senior Superintendent Verhoef accompanied the MEC to the accident scene this afternoon,

- which was on the 8th, today, or yesterday.

		The MEC was briefed on the state of the investigations as well as the role of the experts.

	7.	The forensic civil engineer, as well as the police officers from the two accident response units, requested that, in order to do an objective investigation, the wreck of the vehicle needed to be uplifted from the scene.  This would enable the experts to thoroughly investigate the cause of the accident.

	8.	Investigations are still continuing and as yet no evidence has been unearthed to indicate any foul play.  Nonetheless, the investigators are probing all aspects of the matter.

This report has been compiled and signed by Commissioner M H Ngidi.  Thank you.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you, hon Premier.  May we again all rise for the moment of silence.  

HON MEMBERS STAND

THE SPEAKER:  May his soul rest in peace.

6.	TABLING OF REPORTS OR PAPERS

7.	NOTICES OF BILLS OR MOTIONS

THE SPEAKER:  Hon member Mr Naicker?

MR S V NAICKER:  Mr Speaker, I shall move on the next sitting day:

	That this House noting the presence of religious leaders at the Parliament of the Worlds Religions being held in Cape Town, and noting also the objectives of the organisation to foster peace and respect for humanity;

	This House therefore calls upon its hon members to support the efforts of the World Parliament of Religion in recognising the diversity of humanity by encouraging a spirit of tolerance and respect for all the people of our Province and country and following the historical example set by such important world leaders and thinkers by organising a similar conference to further unite the diverse people of KwaZulu-Natal in a new spirit of nation building to take us into the new millennium based on the examples set in our country by the World Parliament of Religions.

Thank you.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  Hon member Mr Keys?

MR R E KEYS:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  I hereby give notice that I will move on the next sitting day of this House that:

	Noting

	the bizarre situation involving the supply of text books to our schools, in that -

	1.	the Tender Board has allegedly been implicated in irregularly awarding tenders and that the decisions made by the Board and the procedures followed are now being challenged in court;

	2.	the Minister of Education and her Department have shown a distinct lack of ability in ensuring that delivery of books actually takes place before schools open next year; and

	3.	these books are targeted for delivery to schools that are under-resourced, under-supplied and poorly serviced

	Therefore this House resolves:

	to call on the Ministers of Education and of Finance to resolve this deadlock as a matter of urgency and report to Parliament within seven days.

Thank you, Mr Speaker.

THE SPEAKER:  Hon member Mr Volker?

MR V A VOLKER:  Mr Speaker, I wish to give notice of the following motion:

	That this House expresses the hope that better progress will be made in the year 2000 with the preparation and submission of Cabinet legislation for discussion in the KZN Legislature.

THE SPEAKER:  Hon member Mr Lowe?

MR C M LOWE:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  I hereby give notice that I shall move on the next sitting day of this House:

	Noting:

	The continued inability of the Department of Works to -

	1.	install appropriate accounting and internal control systems;

	2.	produce accurate financial statements; and

	3.	provide an acceptable level of maintenance to and recover revenues from, its client departments.

	The duplication of many of its areas of responsibility with the line functions of other departments.

	Resolves:

	To abolish the Department of Works and re-allocate its responsibilities amongst the other appropriate departments.

Thank you, Mr Speaker.

THE SPEAKER:  Hon member Professor Khubisa?

PROF M N KHUBISA:  Mr Speaker, I hereby give notice that I shall move on the next sitting day as follows:

	Noting that Christmas is the time for joy, peace and love;  and further noting that this festive season is unique in the sense that there will be millennium celebrations, this House therefore resolves that the citizens of KwaZulu-Natal exercise stringent restraint in order to ensure that tranquillity reigns supreme during this season and we call upon the police to employ strict and severe punitive measures against the perpetrators of violence and all criminal elements.

	Further, this House resolves that the police do their utmost best in ensuring that the security is tight on beaches, in resorts and within the community in rural and urban areas.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

THE SPEAKER:  Hon member Mr Mthimkhulu?

MR M MTHIMKHULU:  Mr Speaker, I hereby give notice that during the next sitting of this House I will move: 

	1.	That this hon House notes with appreciation the response of our people who attended in big numbers HIV/AIDS Awareness events during the World AIDS Day on 1 December.

	2.	There was a glaring and disappointing absence of whites, Indians and coloureds especially in the event held at Currie's Fountain sports ground in Durban.  This particular event, which culminated into a march, should have depicted the real rainbow nation of this Province because it was a joint activity involving all political parties represented in this Legislature.

		This House resolves:

		1.	To urge all hon members to mobilise followers of their parties to effectively participate in the HIV/AIDS Awareness programmes;  and

		2.	To highlight to the people of this Province that AIDS is not a black disease, but it affects everybody in this country.

I thank you.

THE SPEAKER:  Hon member Mr Ngidi, from the ANC?  Thank you.

MR N V E NGIDI:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  I was beginning to think I am insignificant.  My weight makes up for my height. [LAUGHTER]  Mr Speaker, I give notice that on the next sitting day I will move as follows:

	Noting:

	1.	that HIV/AIDS is the most serious scourge ever to afflict humanity;  and

	2.	that the workshop held on 29 November 1999 organised for members of this Legislature by NACOSA was poorly attended as only three members attended.

	Believing:

	That, as public servants, members of this Legislature should be seen to be in the forefront of the anti-AIDS campaign;

	Therefore resolves:

	1.	that this House deplores the non-attendance of members and, particularly, their failure to send apologies;  and

	2.	that the Parliamentary Executive Board organises an AIDS workshop and invites NACOSA to facilitate. 

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

THE SPEAKER:  Hon member Mr Ngidi?

MR S NGIDI:  Mr Speaker, I give notice that I will move as follows on the next sitting day of this House:

	Noting

	(a)	the carnage and death in our roads which continue unabated notwithstanding the commendable attempts by the Minister of Transport;

	(b)	further noting that the attempts to reduce the speed limit of mini bus taxis and buses have not resulted in any significant reduction in this carnage.

	This House therefore resolves to call on the Minister of Transport to enact provisions which will make it mandatory in public transport vehicles to fit crash bars to reduce deaths in case of accidents and roll overs of these vehicles.

THE SPEAKER:  Hon member Mr Burrows?

MR R M BURROWS:  Mr Speaker, I give notice that I will move on the next sitting day that this House:

	Noting the recent murder of two Mayville policemen in Durban whilst on SAPS duty and the fact that 100 KwaZulu-Natal police have been killed this year;

	This House calls on the President and the Minister of Safety and Security to institute immediately a minimum of a mandatory life sentence for any person found guilty of murder of police members;  and

	expresses its sincere condolences to the family and friends of all murdered police personnel.

THE SPEAKER:  Hon member Miss Thakur?

MISS S THAKUR:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  I hereby give notice that I shall move on the next sitting day of this hon House as follows:

	That this House records that the new democratic order has endeavoured to transform the police service, post-apartheid, by introducing the concept of community policing, its inherent object being that of cementing good relations between the community and the police as well as facilitating the betterment of the social conditions in which the communities live.

	Therefore, it be noted with great concern that, particularly in the black communities, it has not lived up to expectations, relegating the disadvantaged communities to the periphery.

	Further, it is resolved to request the hon Ministers of Safety and Security, Local Government and Education to develop strategies to ensure the success of this relatively new concept for those committed policemen who embrace the concept in its totality and for our people out there, who believe they can beat crime with the co-operation of the police.

Thank you.

THE SPEAKER:  Hon member Dr Roopnarain?

DR U ROOPNARAIN:  NOT ON RECORD.

THE SPEAKER:  Order!  Order, hon member.  I think we have got a problem with your mike.  They cannot hear you.  Can you start afresh, use the other mike.

DR U ROOPNARAIN:  Mr Speaker, I hereby give notice that I shall move on the next sitting day:

	Noting with concern the virulent and devastating impact of the AIDS epidemic and its spread to infect millions more.  Also noting the excessive stress placed on the medical system;  as infections increase at the rate of 1,600 per day;

	Therefore this House resolves to:

	1.	call on the hon Minister of Health, Dr Zweli Mkhize, to investigate the serious overcrowding of the St Francis Hospital which has literally become a `dumping ground' for HIV/AIDS patients; and.

	2.	in view of an over-stressed medical system, calls on the Minister of Health to establish hospices or home-based care centres in the area; and

	3.	also, ensure that these hospices or home-based care centres are monitored so as to provide the best available and non-discriminatory care.

Thank you.

THE SPEAKER:  Hon member Mr Raju.

MR N RAJU:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  I give notice that I shall move at the next sitting day of this House: 

	That this House, noting the declaration by UNESCO of the St Lucia Wetland of KZN, Robben Island in the Cape and the Sterkfontein palaeotological site in Gauteng as World Heritage sites,

	welcomes the grouping of these areas of outstanding universal value with such world famous places such as the Acropolis in Greece and the Pyramids of Egypt,

	and noting especially that one of these sites, the St Lucia Wetland is situated in the Province of KZN, expresses optimism that the promise of job creation opportunities is indeed re-assuring in the short term, with the focus of international tourist development in the long term.

I thank you.

THE SPEAKER:  Hon member Mr Shabalala?

MR T M SHABALALA:  On the next meeting day of this House I shall move as follows:

	While appreciating the good work done by the National Ministers in bringing the much coveted development projects to the communities, the House wishes to warn that in order to avoid unnecessary unhealthy relationships and friction, animosity and the perceptions of being looked down upon, proper lines of protocol which will involve the provincial MECs and the portfolio committee members when such projects are to be given to all National Ministries who now and in future will be involved in the allocation of such projects.

I so move.  Thank you.

THE SPEAKER:  Hon member Miss Nahara?

MISS F M NAHARA:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  Mr Speaker, I hereby give notice that I shall move in terms of Standing Rule (4):

	Noting that:

	-	the Nature Conservation and Environmental Affairs Portfolio Committee has drafted as a Committee Bill under Section 119 of the Constitution, read together with Standing Rule 42(c), namely the KwaZulu-Natal Nature Conservation Amendment Bill 1999.  

	-	the Bill being a Committee Bill, sub-Rule 122(2)(b) and Rule 116 are rendered inapplicable.

	-	the Bill is of a technical nature, merely effecting 12 sequential section re-numbering changes and one rectification of a gender imbalance inadvertently omitted from the KwaZulu-Natal Nature Conservation Management Amendment Act, 1999 (KZN Act No 5 of 1999), and one short title nomenclature error contained in the same Act; and

	-	publication of the Bill is unanimously deemed by the portfolio committee to be unnecessary on the grounds, that public participation in this technical process is uncalled for, and further unwarranted delays and superfluous financial expenditure would be incurred.

	THIS HOUSE THEREFORE RESOLVES -

	-	to move this motion, without notice, under sub-Rule 4 (3);

	-	to suspend the operation of the provisions of the following Standing Rules for the purposes of the business of this House in dealing with the KwaZulu-Natal Nature Conservation Amendment Bill, 1999:

	1.	Standing Rule 120, so that publication of the Bill prior to introduction in this House is waived; and

	2.	Standing Rule 121(b), so that the Bill may be introduced by submitting the Bill to the Speaker, together with only the Explanatory Memorandum there on.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  You move that in terms of which Rule? Rule 104 or something?  Which rule? 

MISS F M NAHARA:  Rule 42(c), Mr Speaker.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  I would like to hear from parties whether they agree to the motion raised by the hon member Miss Nahara, in terms of Rule 4.  Thank you.  I would like to hear from each party.  Hon member Mrs Cronje?

MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):  Mr Speaker, on behalf of the ANC, I can confirm that - and I am also a member of that particular committee - that the portfolio committee agreed that, in the light of the purely technical nature of these amendments, that we would request this hon House to waive the Rules regarding publication because we saw it as wasteful.  So, from the ANC's side, we certainly do support the motion.

THE SPEAKER:  IFP?

MR M M MACKENZIE:  Mr Speaker, the IFP has no problem with the proposal.

THE SPEAKER:  Democratic Party?

MR W U NEL: (Whip):  Mr Speaker, the Democratic Party would support the Bill being debated and placed on the Order Paper.

THE SPEAKER:  New National Party?

MR V A VOLKER:  The National Party concurs with that arrangement.

THE SPEAKER:  Minority Front?

MISS S THAKUR:  Mr Speaker, we have checked the Bill and we support it.

THE SPEAKER:  ACDP?

MRS J M DOWNS:  We have no problem with it, as arranged, Mr Speaker.

THE SPEAKER:  UDM?  Unfortunately, I think that - Oh awubonakali Mkhatshwa angazi kwenzenjani.   [I have no idea of what is going on.  I cannot see you Mkhatshwa].

MR S N NXUMALO:  I support the motion.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  So it means that the resolution is being supported by all parties.  Thank you.

ALL PARTIES SUPPORT THE MOTION AS MOVED BY MISS F M NAHARA.

Hon member Mr Mackenzie?

MR M M MACKENZIE:  Mr Speaker, I shall move on the next sitting day that this Parliament:

	Noting the unbridled escalation in hijacking and mugging of tourists both in protected areas and their precincts which continues with apparent impunity.

	THIS HOUSE THEREFORE RESOLVES TO

	call upon the KwaZulu-Natal Nature Conservation Service Board to ensure that suitably trained personnel be deployed to safeguard tourists while on walking trails in protected areas.

THE SPEAKER:  Hon member Mr Mbatha?

MR E S MBATHA:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  I hereby give notice that I will move on the next sitting day of this hon House as follows:

	That this House noting the necessity of more Eco-Tourism Centres especially in rural areas, and further noting that our coalition government aims at addressing the needs of disadvantaged communities, I move as follows:

	*	the Ministry of Economic Development and Tourism should as urgently as possible establish a comprehensive Rural Development Plan which allows it to work jointly with Amakhosi, companies and NGO's.

	This Plan should detail clearly how the underprivileged communities will be developed.

	Furthermore, the Ministry of Economic Development and Tourism should provide a database of potential Eco-Tourism Centres in certain forests.  (With indigenous vegetation in our rural areas).

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

THE SPEAKER:  Any further motion?  Mr Rajbansi?

MR A RAJBANSI:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  I hereby give notice that I shall move tomorrow in this hon House as follows: 

THE SPEAKER:  Is it now working?  Have you tried the other one, Mr Rajbansi.

MR A RAJBANSI:  It is like the DP.  Is the DP bugging this thing?  [LAUGHTER]  Why this did not work, I thought Mr Roger Burrows would move what I am going to move:  [LAUGHTER]

	This House has always recognised that, in respect of the allocation of funds for education, priority must be given to black African pupils who have suffered most as a result of apartheid especially the former black areas where school building programmes were seriously neglected;

	that it be also recognised that black African pupils should not be punished because they have enroled in schools in other areas especially in the former House of Delegates schools;

	that it also be recognised that there are thousands of very poor people of Indian and coloured descent who reside in townships such as Sparks Estate, Newlands, Chatsworth, Northdale and Phoenix;

	that it be also recognised that the formula for the allocation of funds to schools, with effect from the beginning of the year 2000, requires that the state of buildings and the poverty levels of pupils be taken into consideration; and

	that, while it is accepted that most of the former black areas will fall into the higher categories for the allocation of funds there is no justification to punish most of the former House of Delegates schools that are placed in the lowest category together with the former Model C schools whereby all black African children in these schools are being penalized together with the poor Indian pupils.

	Therefore it be resolved to request the Minister of Education and Culture to review the decision of the Department so that the allocations can be fair and equitable, with the former black African areas remaining in the two highest categories.

AN HON MEMBER:  You are a year late.

MR A RAJBANSI:  We are not a year late. You see, that must be ...

THE SPEAKER:  No, no, no, you need not start ...

MR A RAJBANSI:  They moved it for the elections.  I am not moving it for the elections.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS.

THE SPEAKER:  Order!  Order, hon member!  Any further motion?  Order!  Order!  Hon Minister?

MRS E E N KANKOSI-SHANDU: (Minister of Education and Culture):  On a point of order, Mr Speaker.  I request that that hon member withdraw that motion because it is absolutely incorrect and it gives incorrect information to Parliament.  I thank you.

THE SPEAKER:  Hon member Mr Rajbansi, unfortunately we need not debate motions.  That is the unfortunate part of it.  Hon member Mr Rajbansi?

MR A RAJBANSI:  Mr Speaker, if there was a review of that decision, then I will consider that request.  But there are other motions here that are not factually correct that were moved today.  One was an attack on the Minister while she was not in the House.

THE SPEAKER:  Any further motion?  Okay, thank you. 

MRS E E N KANKOSI-SHANDU: (Minister of Education and Culture):  On another point of order, Mr Speaker.

THE SPEAKER:  Hon Minister?

MRS E E N KANKOSI-SHANDU: (Minister of Education and Culture):   Mr Speaker, I rise on a point of order and I wish you to rule.  Is it parliamentary for an hon member of this House to deliberately and in a cruel manner mislead this House by falsely accusing another hon member of this House of "showing contempt for this House", when the accused member is known to be an ardent respecter of law, order and discipline and the rule of law in this Parliament.  As did the hon member W U Nel of the Democratic Party to member Kankosi-Shandu.  I request that you rule, Mr Speaker, that the hon member, if he wants to uphold his honour, withdraw the accusation.  I thank you.

MR R M BURROWS:  Mr Speaker ...

THE SPEAKER:  Hon Mr Burrows?

MR R M BURROWS:  I rise on a point of order and request that if you are to consider the matter that is raised by the hon Minister, you will also consider the matter of the conduct of the hon Minister which gave rise to the motion in question.

THE SPEAKER:  I will consider and make my ruling at the next sitting.  Thank you.

8.	ORDERS OF THE DAY

8.1	QUESTIONS

QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS APPEAR IN VOLUME 10 1999.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  Then we have come to the end of questions.  We will move to item 8.2 on the Order Paper.

8.2	 KWAZULU-NATAL ADJUSTMENT ESTIMATES BILL, 1999.

THE SPEAKER:  The hon Minister of Finance?

MR P M MILLER: (Minister of Finance):  Mr Speaker, hon members of the House.  On 31 March 1999, the estimated revenue and expenditure for the 1999/2000 financial year for the Province of KwaZulu-Natal was approved by this House.  It is again my pleasure to stand before this hon House, and present to you the Adjustment Estimate for the year ending 31 March 2000.

The purpose of the Adjustments Estimate is to invite the Provincial Legislature to consider requests for funds in addition to funds already appropriated in the Main Estimate.

These requests for additional funds are measured against the requirements of Section 1.(1)(a) to (d) of the KwaZulu-Natal Exchequer Act, No 1 of 1994, which specifies that requests be limited to:

1.	shifting of funds between programmes within votes and between votes;

2.	re-appropriation of money for services of the Province in respect of which no or insufficient moneys have been appropriated in the relevant financial year, and which may only be appropriated subject to the stipulations in the Act;

3.	any other change or adjustment to an Appropriation Act which applies in the relevant financial year, and which Treasury deems necessary;

4.	the re-appropriation of money, which was appropriated in the preceding financial year, but was not spent;  and

5.	other adjustments which the Treasury may deem necessary.

It is the last clause I really like because it is the shotgun clause.

Now, Mr Speaker, many of the adjustments have occurred as a result of the re-allocation of several ministerial portfolios, and the accompanying restructuring of several provincial departments, details of which will be outlined below as I proceed.

Today marks the day on which we have to assess in earnest our financial performance during the fiscal year that we are now concluding.  The best way to do this, is perhaps to remind ourselves of the financial crisis which confronted the Province at the end of the 1997/98 financial year.

Mr Speaker, you and hon members will recall that the 1997/98 fiscal year closed with a deficit of approximately R1,7 billion.  In order to turn the finances of the Province around, my Ministry and the Provincial Treasury put in place a wide range of mechanisms to monitor, control and evaluate departmental expenditures during the 1998/99 financial year.  This emphasis on financial control has continued and strengthened during the 1999/2000 financial year, so that the positive financial outlook has been maintained during the year under review.  For example, regular bilateral meetings on expenditure have been held between the National Departments of Finance and the National Department of State Expenditure, the Provincial Treasury, the Finance Portfolio Committee and the senior management of provincial departments.  As a result of these measures, and as a result of the trust, understanding and co-operation which have been developed between Provincial Treasury and other departments of the Province, the expenditure of the Province, especially the three big Departments of Education, Health and Social Welfare, has been stabilised.  It is therefore my pleasure to confirm, Mr Speaker, that the Province continues to be in a relatively positive financial position.

Proof of the positive financial position in which the Province finds itself is provided by the financial results for the period 1 April to 30 November 1999, which I will be tabling before the Cabinet tomorrow morning.  When this speech was written, it had been intended that those results would have been tabled today, but the Cabinet agenda was so packed this morning that in fact we will be continuing with our meeting at 08:00 tomorrow morning and it is only then when I will table these figures before the Cabinet.  However, certain aspects of those figures I will share with hon members in this House today.

The figures reveal that we are within budget, and should the expenditure trend line continue for the final four months of the year as it has for the first eight months, then we can expect to end the year within budget.  I hasten to add that, notwithstanding the best laid plans, it seems almost inevitable that expenditure is greater in the second half of the year than it is in the first.  Conservative - and I emphasise conservative - projections suggest, however, that we will end the year with a small saving, so enabling us to continue the trend established last year of steadily reducing our indebtedness to our Bankers.

A particularly pleasing aspect of the Province's financial performance in the present year has been the skill with which the Accountant General and his team have managed the cash flow.  So successfully have they done this that on only 13 days in this financial year up to and including yesterday, have we actually gone into overdraft at the bank.  The nett result is that up to now we have not only paid minimum interest on our debt, amounting to a mere R170,581, but we have actually been able to earn interest on our positive cash levels, amounting to a total of R18,849,742.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

MR P M MILLER: (Minister of Finance):  This means that for the first eight months and two days of the financial year we earned a nett interest income of R18,679,161.  If only any other people with overdrafts could actually earn money on that overdraft.

It is, however, unrealistic, hon members, to expect that we can start the year with a debt of R677 million, and manage to maintain positive cash balances for the entire year - although I must add that the Province's Accountant General considers me to be very pessimistic in this regard.

This performance, hon members, Mr Speaker, indeed is to the credit of not only staff members of the Department of Finance, but to the co-operation we have received from every department.  Although there continue to be identified weaknesses in the financial management of departments, the improvement that has taken place since the dark days prior to the 1998/99 financial year has been nothing short of remarkable.  I am sure that all hon members in the House will join me in extending our gratitude and appreciation to all other Ministers of Cabinet, to their Accounting Officers and their financial managers for helping us to face our former financial critics with confidence.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

MR P M MILLER: (Minister of Finance):  Having said this, we can never relax our vigilance, as it is easy to adopt a populist stance, and undo all the good work of the last two years in a matter of months.  I am indeed confident that we will be amply rewarded for the financial pain we have had to endure when in a year or two our equitable share grows to its rightful size, and simultaneously we are able to release funds reserved for debt redemption for spending by departments in the provision of services to our people.

I must, Mr Speaker, pause here to reiterate my thanks to my Cabinet colleagues, to the members of the Finance Portfolio Committee and to the senior management of all our provincial departments for their support over the past year, and for their contribution towards maintaining the expenditure level at an acceptable limit within very tight fiscal constraints.

I now move to the adjustments for the 1999/2000 year.


THE 1999/2000 ADJUSTMENTS

I commence by saying that it is my pleasure to announce that in these adjustments we will be appropriating an extra R916,113 million to meet the requirements of the Province.

It is now appropriate that I should look briefly at each vote, stating the overall increase or decrease and to mention the significant movements contributing to these increases or decreases.  The over-expenditure of departments in the previous financial year was to be suspended from their respective allocations in the 1999/2000 Adjustments Estimate.  This course of action has not been taken, because Treasury is of the opinion that departments should be given the chance to adjust to this new policy of reducing budget allocations in line with any over-expenditure incurred in the previous financial year.  I pause to observe the courtship taking place on my right here by the hon Minister of - and I see it is - yes.

I indicated, Mr Speaker, that Treasury is of the opinion that departments should be given the chance to adjust to this new policy of reducing budget allocations in line with over-expenditure incurred in the previous financial year.  I, however, wish today to go on public record in the House and inform departments that this adjustment will definitely happen in the 2000/2001 financial year.

1.	DEPARTMENT OF THE PREMIER

	Mr Premier, the expenditure of your Department will reflect an overall increase of R10,976 million.  This increase is due to the following significant changes:

-	an increase of R2,748 million in the respect of the suspension of funds from various departments in respect of Persal consultants;

-	a further increase of R9,159 million relating to the function shift of the Gaming and Betting component from the Department of Finance;

-	there will be an increase of R12,000 relating to the transfer of certain municipal services from the Department of Works;

-	there will be a decrease in the Department of the Premier vote of R584,000 to cover a shortfall on several items pertaining to the Royal Household, such as vehicle maintenance and the payment of school fees;  and

-	a further decrease of R359,000, which will be suspended from the Premier's vote and moved to other departments for the payment of messengers and food service aids in the Department of Finance and the Department of Traditional and Local Government Affairs.

I move on to vote 2, Provincial Parliament.

2.	PROVINCIAL PARLIAMENT

	Provincial Parliament has an overall increase of just over R377,000, comprising a function shift of R32,000 relating to municipal services from the Department of Works, and an additional allocation of R345,000 from the provincial debt redemption reserve to cover over-expenditure.

	However, it is the next point that I have great pleasure in announcing.  An additional statutory amount of R1,589,000 has been allocated to the Provincial Parliament to cover the cost of the salary adjustment to members of the Provincial Legislature with effect from 1 April 1999.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

MR P M MILLER: (Minister of Finance):

	This increase will be gazetted tomorrow and members will be paid on 15 December.

3.	DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE AND ENVIRONMENTAL AFFAIRS

	The revised allocation of the Department of Agriculture and Environmental Affairs can mainly be attributed to function shifts between various provincial departments.  The increased allocation of R165,502 million is made up of the following:

-	an amount of R3,244 million which was suspended from the Department of Works for municipal services, and from the Department of Transport in respect of the transfer of a post;

-	amounts of R166,021 million and R8,581 million which were transferred from the Department of Traditional and Environmental Affairs, relating to the function shifts of the KZN Nature Conservation Services and the Directorate of Environmental Affairs respectively;  and

-	an amount of R12,344 million which will be allocated to this Department in the 2000/2001 Adjustment Estimates.

	If I might explain that last one.  We have a policy, which we insist must now be followed by all departments, that if they are running their financial affairs in a sound manner, they should, by the time we do the Adjustment Estimates, know whether they are going to in fact not be able to spend their entire allocation for this year.  That being the case, then, departments are encouraged to come to us and request the suspension of that money from this year's appropriation and then the re-appropriation of that money in the following year, rather than come to us at the end of March and say: "We did our best.  We could not spend our money.  Can we please continue to have it?" or on the other hand, just go about spending their money on unproductive items in this year in order not to have a surplus at the end of March.

	That, the R12,344 million which I have just alluded to in the Department of Agriculture and Environmental Affairs, is exactly one of those situations where, by agreement with the Department, they have asked us to suspend that money this year and then re-appropriate it next year.

4.	DEPARTMENT OF ECONOMIC AFFAIRS AND TOURISM

	The revised allocation of the Department of Economic Affairs and Tourism shows an increase of R7,502 million, comprising an additional allocation of R3 million in respect of the KZN Philharmonic Orchestra.  In this case, this is in response to an agreement reached between Treasury and the former Minister of Economic Affairs (now the Deputy President).  In addition, an amount of R4,5 million has been allocated to fund the tourism potential generated by the centenary celebrations of the Anglo-Boer South African War, and this was a major effort to promote tourism development in the Province and by all accounts has so far been very successful.

5.	DEPARTMENT OF EDUCATION AND CULTURE

	The expenditure for the Department of Education and Culture reflects a decrease of R9,365 million, attributable to the following significant movements:

	-	there was an increase of R42,432 million resulting from a conditional grant received from National Government for financial management and quality enhancement;

	-	this is offset to an extent by a decrease of R50,400 million relating to the transfer of funds from Education to the Department of Works, but to be used for renovations, maintenance and construction of education buildings and for the hiring also of some buildings for educational purposes;

	-	there is a decrease of R1,670 million resulting from the transfer of funds for PERSAL consultants to the Office of the Premier.  I might add that all PERSAL consultants are now located in the office of the Premier because corporate IT Services are also located in that Department;

	-	then, finally, a small amount, R273,000, being the transfer of posts and funds from the Departments of Works and Transport to Education.


6.	THE DEPARTMENT OF FINANCE

	The Department of Finance sees a substantial increase of R503,203 million in the revised allocation.  This is attributed to the following factors:

	-	a nett decrease of R9 million resulting from the function shifts between Finance and several other departments, the chief of which was the Office of the Premier, to cater for the transfer of the Gaming and Betting component;

	-	there was a decrease of R234,704 million which relates to additional allocations made to various provincial departments, having drawn on the provincial debt redemption reserve, and, in fact, that decrease forms part and parcel of the re-allocations that we are making in this very Adjustment Estimate.  For example, as will become apparent later, we have an additional amount of R138 million appropriated to the Department of Welfare to cater for the 4% increase in transfer payments, particularly Social Welfare grants of one kind or another;

	-	there is also an increase in this vote of R281,5 million, which was a supplementary conditional grant from the National Department of Finance to assist with provincial debt redemption;

	-	there will be an increase of R3,4 million, being a conditional grant from National Government for financial and personnel management systems support;  and

	-	finally, Mr Speaker, hon members, an increase of R462,007 million which will be used for the 1999/2000 wage adjustment, that is improvement of conditions of service in respect of all provincial employees in all votes, and it is reflected here in the Department of Finance Adjustment Estimate for appropriation purposes only.

7.	DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH

	The Department of Health's revised allocation shows a substantial increase of R100,331 million due to the following changes:

	-	conditional grants of R41,721 million and R34,800 million received from National Government for the Integrated Nutrition Programme and to fund rehabilitation of hospitals respectively;

	-	a major reduction of R916,000 relating again to the transfer of funds to the Office of the Premier in respect of PERSAL consultants;

	-	an increase of R21,826 million resulting from various function shifts from the Department of Works.  As an example, an amount of R15 million was transferred from the Department of Works with regard to the funding of the maintenance of hospital and other medical facilities;
		and,

	-	finally, additional allocations of R1,5 million and R1,4 million respectively to fund, firstly, the continuation of the Performance Enhancement Plan contract, which is working in the Department of Health at the present time and being managed by the firm of chartered accountants, Ernst and Young, and the R1,4 million as I have mentioned before, which begins to fund the HIV/AIDS campaign.  That campaign, in the following three years of the MTEF, will be getting an extra R20 million each per year.

8.	DEPARTMENT OF LOCAL GOVERNMENT AND HOUSING

	This is a Department which, in terms of this particular Adjustment Estimate, now formally vanishes from the scene.  There will be no more such a department.  This results from the re-allocation of ministerial portfolios and the restructuring of several departments.  So this Department, for purposes of this appropriation, reflects a decrease of R452,092 million.  It is made up of two separate suspensions:

	-	the one is a transfer of R114,472 million to the new vote 8, which will be the vote of the Department of Housing;  and

	-	a transfer of R337,620 million to vote 11, which will be the vote number for the new Department of Traditional and Local Government Affairs.

8.	DEPARTMENT OF HOUSING

	We deal now with the new vote 8, the Department of Housing.  The re-allocation of ministerial portfolios and the restructuring of several departments, necessitated the creation of this new Department, with the adjusted allocation of R121,227 million.  This allocation is made up of the following adjustments:

	-	conditional grants of R1,22 million, R3 million and R2 million respectively, received from National Government to fund the building of capacity within the Province and for the hostel upgrading policy;

	-	a function shift of R114,472 million from the now defunct vote 8 Department of Local Government and Housing, due to the re-allocation of the ministerial portfolios, as mentioned earlier;  and

	-	a commitment of R535,000 in respect of a roll-over of transitional grant funds that were not utilised in 1998/99.

9.	SOUTH AFRICAN POLICE SERVICES

	The South African Police Services, or Safety and Security.  There is a nominal increase of R1,000 against this vote.  Merely nominal for purposes of the Adjustment Estimate.

10.	PROVINCIAL SERVICE COMMISSION

	Likewise, vote 10, Provincial Service Commission, the Provincial Service Commission's revised allocation reflects a nominal increase of R1,000.

	Effectively that is no increase at all.  It is simply an appropriation mechanism that we use so that no vote is left out of the adjusted appropriation.

11.	DEPARTMENT OF TRADITIONAL AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT AFFAIRS

	The revised allocation of this Department reflects a substantial increase of R171,302 million, attributable to the following factors:

	-	a function shift from the erstwhile vote 8, Department of Local Government and Housing of R337,620 million;

	-	function shifts of R166,021 million and R8,581 million respectively to the Department of Agriculture and Environmental Affairs as a result of the transfer of KZN Nature Conservation Services and Directorate Environmental Affairs to that Department;

	-	a further conditional grant totalling R12,208 million received from National Government, for management support programmes, and for subsidising the development of land development objectives in poor rural areas;

	-	a decrease of R13 million, being a roll-over to 2000/2001, to assist with the implementation of new legislation, namely the Demarcation Act and the Municipal Structures Act.  This R13 million is being treated in exactly the same way as I mentioned earlier in the Department of Agriculture.  Suspension of the funds has been requested this year, subject to re-appropriation next year in order that the funds will be available as we implement the Demarcation Act and the Municipal Structures Act in the course of 2000;

	-	an increase of R6,994 million in respect of a roll-over of transitional grant funds that were not utilised before the end of 1998/99.  This arrangement had been made with us last year, so we are implementing now exactly what we intend to implement in next year's Adjustment Estimate with the R13 million that I have just spoken about;

	-	then, finally, an increase of R2,082 million, as a result of various function shifts from the Office of the Premier and from the Department of Works for municipal services.

12.	DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORT

	Mr Speaker, hon members, the Department of Transport comes next.  They have a revised allocation which shows an overall increase of R408,000, explained as follows:

	-	a decrease of R220,000 in respect of the transfer of posts and funds to several provincial departments;  and

	-	this is balanced by an increase of R628,000 resulting from the function shift relating to municipal services from the Department of Works.

13.	DEPARTMENT OF SOCIAL WELFARE AND POPULATION DEVELOPMENT

	Social Welfare's revised allocation reflects a substantial increase of R158,383 million, due mainly to the following factors:
	
	-	conditional grants totalling R17,632 million received from National Government, for financial management of social security systems, to assist with the Child Support Grant and for victim support services;

	-	an increase of R2,712 million resulting from several function shifts from the Department of Works for municipal services;

	-	an increase of R2,712 million resulting from several function shifts from the Department of Works for municipal services and cleaning staff;  and,

	-	the following is probably the most important single additional allocation in this entire Adjustment Estimate.  An additional allocation of R138,039 million from the provincial debt redemption reserve to cover the 4% increase in pension benefits.  I pause for a moment to inform hon members that it is with great regret that we have had to do this and it results basically from the fact that so far we have not been able to get National Government to honour a commitment that increases in pension benefits, which are decided nationally, must then also be funded nationally.

	The fact of the matter simply is this, that to continue bluffing ourselves that this money would come was just causing a distortion in our appropriation accounts and in our financial management and as such we have taken this step.  However, our Department and my Ministry has not yet conceded defeat on this issue.  Certainly, early in the new year, when we face the question of what increase will be announced in terms of the national budget in February, we will clearly be able to say in this particular case that we cannot support any increase to be funded out of our MTEF projections unless that increase is accompanied by a categorical and irrevocable undertaking from national that whatever increase is decided upon comes with the money necessary to pay it.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

MR P M MILLER: (Minister of Finance):

	We therefore emphasize that, in the future, payment of Welfare increases will depend entirely upon affordability, and I reiterate what I have already said, that the current medium term expenditure framework will not be able to accommodate any increases in Welfare benefits and, if we are forced to do so, it will be clearly understood that the other two big spending departments, namely Education and Health, are the two that will have to make the sacrifice.

14.	DEPARTMENT OF WORKS

	We come now to vote 14.  The revised allocation of the Department of Works shows an increase of R19,847 million as a result of the following movements:

	-	it starts with a decrease of R21,770 million to cater for function shifts to the Department of Health with regard to municipal services and maintenance funds;

	-	an increase of R50,400 million transferred by the Department of Education and Culture to Works in respect of maintenance, repairs and renovations, hiring and construction of educational buildings;

	-	then, again, we have a decrease of R8,165 million, transferred to various other provincial departments for municipal services;

	-	and, finally, a decrease of R618,000, relating to the transfer of posts and funds to several other provincial departments.

	All those increases and decreases balance out with a nett increase of the R19,847 million I mentioned at the start of this particular paragraph.

15.	PROMOTING THE RECONSTRUCTION AND DEVELOPMENT PROGRAMME

	We come now to the controversial vote promoting the Reconstruction and Development Programme and this vote now actually will reflect the R76,620 million which comprises of the following:

	-	a roll-over of R73,141 million appropriated in 1998/99 to cater for the KwaZulu-Natal Peace Initiative;  and

	-	an increase of R3,479 million relating to the roll-over of funds appropriated in 1998/99 for the RDP Discretionary Fund.

I suggest that perhaps my colleagues in Cabinet and the hon the Premier and ourselves will start having to give attention to exactly how these funds are to be spent and as soon as possible, now that they are formally in the appropriation.  These funds had to, unfortunately, be funded from the provincial debt redemption reserve.  What had happened is plain and simple.  In previous years, in the dark days when expenditure exceeded income by the amounts it did, this money was given to us, and it was swallowed up by the overdraft at the time.

16.	THE ROYAL HOUSEHOLD

The Royal Household reflects a small increase of R584,000, due to the transfer of funds from the Office of the Premier to cover a shortfall on various items, such as vehicle maintenance and payments of school fees.  You will recollect that when I dealt with vote 1 I said there was a decrease of exactly the same amount, which shows now as an increase in vote 16.

SOURCE OF FUNDING

Mr Speaker, ladies and gentlemen, what is the source of this funding?  I am pleased to announce that a total additional amount of R941,457 million was received from the National Exchequer by way of various conditional grants and funds for improvement of conditions of service.  In addition, an amount of R25,344 million has been identified as savings in the current financial year, to be rolled over for utilisation in 2000/2001.  This gives us a total of R916,113 million additional funds to be voted today.  But, in addition to the funding received from national, an amount of R232,398 million had to be allocated for specific functions, the largest being the additional allocation to Social Welfare and to other various provincial departments from the provincial debt redemption reserve.

It is always difficult, hon members, and unfortunate when we have to do this, but we have had no choice in the matter this year, so it has the effect of simply delaying the pace at which we are able to completely wipe out our debt.  Nonetheless, I am very pleased to say that the amount we did have to re-allocate for specific provincial functions from the debt redemption reserve was more than balanced by an amount of R281,5 million that we were given to assist us with debt redemption in the Adjustment Estimate of the National Assembly that was passed earlier this year.

So the nett position is that, provided the wheels do not come off between now and 31 March, what we budgeted to reduce our debt by in the present year could well still come to fruition by the end of the financial year.

The other major changes in what I have presented to you today have occurred as a result of the three departments that have been restructured due to the re-allocation of ministerial portfolios, namely the Department of Agriculture and Environmental Affairs, the Department of Housing and the Department of Traditional and Local Government Affairs.

CONCLUSION

In conclusion, Mr Speaker, I have explained to the House the changes that have occurred during the fiscal year under review and which have led to the requirement of an additional R916,113 million.

It therefore now gives me great pleasure to table at this stage the Adjustments Estimate Bill, 1999 and the Adjustment Estimate Book in terms of Section 4(5)(b) of the KwaZulu-Natal Exchequer Act, Act No 1 of 1994, read together with Rule 132(a) of the Standing Rules of the Provincial Legislature of KwaZulu-Natal.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  Thank you very much, Mr Minister.  It is on that score that at this juncture one will call the members of the Finance Committee to move to the DP caucus room now to begin to discuss and look at the matter on the Special Adjustment Estimates by the Minister.  Thank you again, Mr Minister, and the announcement that you made in the middle of your speech, surely the portfolio committee will be debating those adjustments with the full understanding that it will have to go through tomorrow.  It is a pleasure then to move to the next item and I will call on the Premier of the Province to address this House.  Mr Premier.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

8.3	ADDRESS BY THE PREMIER

THE PREMIER:  Hon Speaker and hon members of the House.  One is somewhat overawed by the thought of a new Millennium.  How can we possibly anticipate what the next 100 years hold in store for us?  What does one say when faced with the unknown?

At the turn of the last century, a brutal war, the Anglo-Boer war, had commenced, which was to create a country which few people had ever dreamt of.  Those that had, like the imperialists, a vision in which British domination, gold and diamonds eclipsed all else.  The future of the Zulus, the Xhosas, the Boers, the Sotho peoples and all our other proud communities was merely incidental.

Yet somehow, through all the turmoil which was to follow, through the rise of apartheid and the various freedom struggles, a thread of common destiny remained intact.  That thread, amidst all the conflict and the strife, was the essence of South Africa awaiting a chance to be born as the reality which we welcome today.  The Millennium which is passing gave birth to this unity among the most disparate and mutually hostile peoples one could imagine.  It is almost as if the past century had a plan for this sub-continent.

Is there such a plan for the new Millennium?  We will never know, because that plan is God's mission.  But we do know that new and even greater challenges await us to test the strength of the thread of destiny to test our faith and character.

The one great test will be that of technology.  At the beginning of the twentieth century, the computer and television had not yet been invented.  Today, innovations and developments which took decades in the past, occur within months.  Will this be a new Imperialism, sweeping aside our values and identity, or will we make technology our own and use it wisely, within our own values and commitments?

The second great challenge will be that of our own weaknesses.  We have liberated ourselves from foreign domination and then from apartheid and exploitation, but we have yet to liberate ourselves from greed, corruption, brutal crime and a primitive virus called HIV/AIDS, which is going to kill many more of our children than all our previous wars combined.  We have proved that we can transform a country and build a nation, but we still have to prove that we can rebuild our families, our communities, our schools and our moral fabric.  If we cannot do this, the pain and sacrifice of the past century will have been in vain.

We will only achieve this through co-operation for social and economic development.  This brings me to our next great challenge - to make democracy work for people rather than the ideologues.  All political doctrines are both right and wrong.  They have all failed and all succeeded in different places and at different times.

We have to get really serious about governance.  Governance is not playing god and bringing some doctrine to the unenlightened.  That is no more than the exploitation of democracy for egotistical purposes.  Governance is trying to do the right thing at the right time;  to resolve specific problems as they are understood by ordinary people.  Around this humble task we can surely co-operate.

I believe, as you do, that the African Renaissance fundamentally involves getting back in touch with the people, and helping them to do what they need to do to improve their lives.  There is no war, ethnic strife, poverty or pestilence on this continent which has been engineered by the people on the ground.  Africa's tragedy is the tragedy of exploitation by demagogues and opportunists.  So far they are doing as good a job of exploiting the African people as the colonialists ever achieved.

But let us be honest, our followers do not have the faintest idea of what we are talking about when we advocate the emergence of the African continent.  It we are serious about the African Renaissance we will sit down together and try to solve the ordinary problems of ordinary people who have entrusted us with their governance.

Colleagues, if we honestly confront these challenges, there is nothing that the new Millennium has in store for us that we will not be able to endure and surmount.  My wish for a New Year's resolution is also precisely that we will be able to work together to solve problems one by one.

The solution of these problems need not take the whole of the Millennium, as it did in the past century.  That will leave us time to build South Africa and KwaZulu-Natal as competitive entities in a world of increasingly tough competition.

May our Christmas gift, then, be the gift of humility and concern for others.  These gifts in turn will bring us all the riches of the earth.  God bless you all, and happy holidays over the festive season.  I thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you, hon Premier.  We will now move on to item 8.4 on the Order Paper.

8.4	REPORT BY THE MINISTER OF LOCAL GOVERNMENT IN TERMS OF RULE 9(2)

THE SPEAKER:  Hon Minister?  In order to save time we will move to item 8.5 on the Order Paper.  8.5, Debate on the following motion.  Also, I can recognise that the hon member Mr Dlamini is not in the Chamber.  Oh, here he is.  Let us go back to item 8.4.  Hon Minister?


INKOSI N J NGUBANE: (Minister of Traditional Affairs, Safety and Security and Local Government):  I am sorry, Mr Speaker and the hon House, I have been under pressure, outside, as far as the work is concerned.

Mr Speaker and hon members, I wish to address this hon House on the Local Government aspect of my responsibilities.

Since taking over the Portfolio of Local Government from my colleague, Minister Miller some months ago, I have become more and more aware of the complexities of local government under the present legislation and concerned at the challenges facing my Department and Local Government as a whole when the complete suite of national legislation emanating from the White Paper is enacted early next year.

To say that the past few months have been difficult, complex and busy would be to understate the fact.  My Department is responsible for assisting with the transformation process of local government, and at the outset I must pay tribute to my staff who are managing the transformation process with skill and determination.

SUPPORT TO MUNICIPALITIES

The financial viability of many local councils has been a major concern to the Department, not the least of which is Colenso.

COLENSO

My Department has borne the brunt of many unfounded allegations that it has done very little, if anything, to assist the Colenso Council.  This I categorically reject.  My colleague, Minister Miller, held several meetings with the council and my Department has done all in its power including a walk through audit and a municipal support programme, to assist the Colenso Council.  These actions all met with scant co-operation from the council.

As early as March this year an action plan for the council was completed which made provision for the normalisation of the treasury function which included credit control measures, capacity building in respect of the acting Chief Executive Officer, the upgrading of the electrical reticulation, normalisation of relations between the council and staff (a one-day workshop was held) the filling of vacancies in the council, normalisation of relationships between the community and council, and generally assistance was rendered by the Department.

By April, Mr Speaker and your hon House, the council had failed to ratify an action plan.  In fact, council meetings held to confirm such a plan were abandoned due to lack of a quorum as certain councillors failed to arrive for the meetings.

In an effort to avoid a formal intervention in terms of section 139 of the Constitution, my Department has as a last resort, deployed uMsekeli Municipal Support Services to try and resolve some of the more pressing problems in Colenso.  This was done through an agreement approved by council and signed by councillors.  Since uMsekeli's intervention on 18 October 1999 the following steps have been taken in an effort to save the municipality:

1.	uMsekeli provided bridging finance of R500,000 on 24 November 1999 to enable the November/December 1999 staff salaries to be paid.

2.	A Town Clerk service has been provided five days a week.

3.	A Town Treasurer service has been provided for two days a week.

4.	A Town Engineer service has been provided two days a week.

5.	A Credit Control Policy approved by Council has been and is in the process of being implemented.  The policy includes:

	5.1	An appeal to ratepayers/consumers in arrears to call at the offices to make arrangements and sign agreements for the payment of their arrears, failing which, disconnections would be instituted.  Up to 30 November 1999, only 225 agreements had been signed.

	5.2	Water restrictors were fitted to approximately 400 consumers' water supplies.

	5.3	Electricity disconnections commenced on 29 November 1999.

	5.4	The installation of pre-paid electricity meters in Nkanyezi commenced on 24 November 1999.

6.	Five meetings of Council/Exco were called between 10 October and 25 November 1999.  Only twice was a quorum attained out of those five meetings.

7.	Councillor allowances were put on hold in view of the poor performance of the councillors and the financial situation in the town.

	Further actions are envisaged, namely:

	(a)	Approval by council to introduce a Debt Pack account recovery system, which will save considerable costs.

	(b)	1998/99 financial statements to be completed by a private company.

	(c)	The sending out of rates assessments for the current financial year.

	(d)	Approaching Eskom to allow the council to defer payments of accounts for bulk electricity supply.

	(e)	Approach ratepayers to pay their 1999/2000 rates accounts as soon as possible.

My Department is very conscious of its constitutional obligations in respect of this supervisory, monitoring and support role to municipalities and, from the financial aspect, the Department is constantly monitoring the financial situation in all municipalities by means of Project Viability.  Arising from this action, 38 management audits have been conducted and 26 management support programmes, funded nationally, have been launched within the Province.

Additionally, my ministerial consultant, Professor de Clercq, has assisted at the following councils:

	Louwsburg
	Paulpietersburg
	Vryheid
	Nongoma
	Weenen
	Howick
	Mooi River
	Cool Air
	Creighton
	Estcourt
	KwaDukuza/Stanger
	Inyala/Mtubatuba
	Umkomaas

Regrettably the situations in some municipalities needed formal action and in addition to certain ongoing commissions of enquiry, I have instituted committees of investigation at Umkomaas and Nongoma.  The Dannhauser and Ugu commissions have been finalised and I will shortly be making my decisions known concerning the findings and recommendations of the commissioners.  The Pongola Commission is due to reconvene shortly to resume its deliberations, which were postponed due to the Pongola Council's insistence on its conducting a disciplinary hearing concerning its Chief Executive Officer.  The iNdlovu Commission is fairly close to concluding its work and I confidently expect its report in the near future.

TRANSFER OF STAFF TO MUNICIPALITIES

The Province of KwaZulu-Natal is the pacesetter with regard to the transfer of staff to municipalities.  4058 staff have been identified for transfer.  Out of that number a total of 756 staff have been formally transferred.  It is expected that the remainder of the staff identified for transfer to municipalities will be transferred during the new year.

Y2K

The Province has given Y2K compliance at municipal level top priority treatment due to its effect on the communities within the Province and we have been congratulated for our outstanding work in addressing this matter.  The Provincial Y2K task team has worked closely with all municipalities within the Province and has identified 18 high priority municipalities.

From the information received from municipalities, the 18 high priority municipalities were at a 95% state of readiness as at 29 November 1999 and the remaining municipalities at a state of readiness of 97% on the same date, which condition, as far as the situation is concerned now, should have improved.

I have the utmost confidence that all municipalities will be 100% compliant before the roll-over period, which will enable all municipalities to function normally.  No communities should feel any ill effect during the roll-over period.

CONTINGENCY PLANNING

The Provincial task team has nevertheless ensured that contingency plans are in place to deal with any problems which may be identified at the time of the roll over.

A total of eight operation centres have been established throughout the Province, including the Provincial Operations Centre stationed at Natalia, Pietermaritzburg.  These centres will be responsible for the monitoring of and reporting to the National Y2K Operations Centre in Pretoria, which will ensure that any problems experienced will be dealt with timeously and efficiently.

The Province has been congratulated by the National Ministry on being the only Province that has ensured that contingency plans are in place for all areas within the Province.


DISASTER MANAGEMENT

The Provincial disaster management team has been called upon on numerous occasions to assist in crisis situations at the following places, and co-ordinated all relief efforts by the emergency role players to the benefit of the victims concerned:

	A thunderstorm at Lidgetton on 1 January 1999, which caused damage to traditional houses in the area.

	A tornado in the Kokstad area on 19 January 1999, which caused damage to property and crops.

	Heavy rain and high winds in the Olivershoek area on 22 March 1999, which damaged traditional homes and some 1,052 people were affected.

	A fire that swept through an informal settlement in Impendle on 16 April 1999.

	Fires swept through four farms in the Bergville area on 2 August 1999 destroying the homes of families in the area.

	Torrential rains experienced on the North and South Coast on 24 October 1999 flooding large areas around Scottburgh.

	A fire that swept through a portion of the Mathonsi Tribal Authority near Mandeni destroying the homes of several families.

	Strong winds at Bulwer on 4 November 1999 where 18 houses were extensively damaged.

	Flash floods at Mpophomeni on 15 November 1999 where the river running through the town burst its banks.

In addition to the co-ordinating role played by the disaster management component, material relief in the form of 743 tents, 3,525 blankets and a substantial amount of food was distributed to the benefit of 5,450 victims.  After the immediate emergency has been stabilised the disaster management component provides guidance in respect of longer term rehabilitation, prevention and preparedness planning.

CONSTITUTIONAL COURT CASE

The Municipal Structures Bill was first published for public comment in the Government Gazette on 22 May 1998.  A further draft of the Structures Bill was published on 3 July 1998.

My Department was of the opinion that if the Structures Act was implemented with its fundamental flaws, it would have led to chaos and uncertainty in the sphere of local government in particular, and all decisions made by the new municipalities established in terms of the Structures Act may have been liable to challenge on the grounds that the very establishment of the municipalities was inconsistent with the Constitution.

As this matter was one of national importance, it was imperative that clarity and certainty on the constitutionality of the Structures Act be obtained as a matter of urgency.  The Cabinet resolved that the constitutionality of certain sections of the Act be challenged in the Constitutional Court.

The matter was considered by the Constitutional Court on 24 August 1999 and the judgment was handed down on 18 October 1999.

The Constitutional Court unanimously upheld the objection of the Government of KwaZulu-Natal to Sections 4, 5, 13 and 24(1).  It held that chapter 7 of the Constitution divides the powers and functions relating to the structure and control of local government between different organs of State, and that the National Government had no powers in respect of such matters, except as allocated to it in the provisions of chapter 7.

The KwaZulu-Natal Government views the Order by the Constitutional Court in regard to its challenge to the Municipal Structures Act as a major victory of principle.  Although the application did not succeed in getting the entire Act declared unconstitutional, a very important principle has been established by the Constitutional Court, namely that the National Government does not have a residual or plenary power to legislate further on matters which are already addressed in the Constitution.  In other words, there are clear limits to the legislative and executive power of National Government, just as there are to provincial government.

CONSOLIDATED MUNICIPAL INFRASTRUCTURE PROGRAMME

KwaZulu-Natal remains one of the leading provinces in implementing the National Consolidated Municipal Infrastructure Programme (MIP).  At the end of June 1999, the provincial progress reflected that:

	-	KZN received 25,29% of the funds allocated to provinces, for 1,068 nationally approved projects valued at R1,5 billion;

	-	KZN's projected expenditure is the highest;

	-	KZN's monthly cash flow is ahead of projection.

Since its inception in April 1997, the provincial CMIP programme has received a cumulative allocation of R314 million from the Department of Constitutional Development.  These funds were used for projects such as the construction and rehabilitation of bulk water storage facilities, sewer reticulation, access roads, storm water drainage and community facilities and have had a visible impact on the quality of life of previously disadvantaged communities in KwaZulu-Natal.  Although the backlog in infrastructural services remains critically high, CMIP has ensured that the implementation of housing projects has not been hampered owing to a lack of bulk services.

During the current financial year 135 CMIP projects, valued at R388,182 million, were approved in KwaZulu-Natal.  The status of these projects can be categorised as follows:

	Approval in rural areas		-	18
	Approved in urban areas		-	117
	Completed			-	63

	Under construction		-	50
	In design			-	22

It is expected that an additional 35 projects will be approved during the current year, while another 185 projects will be evaluated and considered for funding during the next financial cycle.

To ensure sustainable development, service providers are encouraged to maximise:

	-	the use of community labour-based construction methods;

	-	the provision of skills training;

	-	the number of jobs created for local small, medium and macro enterprises (SMME's);  and

	-	the development of local entrepreneurs for subsequent construction and maintenance contracts.

CMIP's impact in the Province can be measured by the fact that the 135 projects, when fully completed and operational, will provide bulk infrastructure and services to 1,3 million labour days of employment during the construction phase.  Thus far, 112 small, medium and macro enterprises have been used on CMIP projects.

SOCIAL EMPOWERMENT

The policy of Social Empowerment has been approved by Cabinet and a document outlining the policy has been distributed for public comment.  It is envisaged that a Social Empowerment Bill will be drafted early in the new year.

A committee, the Interdepartmental Management Committee on Social Empowerment, has been established and comprises officials from all provincial departments involved in social empowerment.  The aim of this committee is to ensure integrated planning and coordination of developmental activities within the Province's social empowerment policy.


CO-OPERATION WITH THE INDEPENDENT ELECTORAL COMMISSION

Following a meeting held on 4 October 1999, it was agreed that a task team be established comprising members of the IEC, the Department of Traditional and Local Affairs, the KwaZulu Local Government Association and the Provincial Operational Co-ordinating Committee.  This task team will meet on a monthly basis to monitor and facilitate the run-up to the municipal elections in the year 2000.

DEPARTMENT OF TRADITIONAL AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT AFFAIRS AND THE MUNICIPAL CHIEF EXECUTIVE OFFICERS' FORUM

Committees have been formed on a regional basis, comprising senior officials from both our head office and our respective regional offices and the chief executive officers of municipalities within the regions where discussions are held on matters of mutual concern in relation to all local government matters.

This forum has proved to be most effective in forming good relations between province and municipalities and has been an avenue that has been successful in dealing with a variety of issues of concern.

KWANALOGA AND TRAINING

Although training is controlled nationally by the National Training Board and the South African Local Government Association, training and capacity building nevertheless falls within the ambit of the constitutional provision of provincial support and monitoring.  To this end, a committee consisting of officials from Kwanaloga and my Department has been established to monitor and oversee all training in the Province.

SPLIT WITH HOUSING AND MERGER WITH TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS

The split and merger between the erstwhile Departments of Local Government and Housing and Traditional and Environmental Affairs into the new Department of Traditional and Local Government Affairs has, with the exception of the formal transfer of a few staff members, been completed with minimal disruption.  I wish my colleague, the hon Minister Makhaye, success in his new Department.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

INKOSI N J NGUBANE: (Minister of Traditional Affairs, Safety and Security and Local Government):  And he must thank my Department for giving a little portion of it to him.

RESTRUCTURING OF DEPARTMENT

The restructuring of the various components of the Department of Traditional and Local Affairs is ongoing, and reorganised staff structures will shortly be presented to me for formal approval in terms of Section 3(5) of the Public Service Act, 1994.

ESTABLISHMENT OF NEW MUNICIPALITIES

Once the boundaries of the new municipalities have been finally determined by the Demarcation Board, my Department will be able to proceed with the formal establishment of those municipalities in accordance with Section 12 of the Municipal Structures Act.

The Act prescribes that the notice establishing a municipality must specify, amongst others:

	-	the type of municipality;

	-	the name;

	-	the number of councillors and which, (if any), will be designated as full time councillors;  and

	-	the division of functions and powers between the District Council and the municipality.

Cabinet has yet to take a decision on the types of municipality that will be established in the Province.  The new name of a municipality will obviously be part of an intensive consultative process between the stakeholders within the boundaries of the new municipality.

The number of councillors for each municipality, which in terms of the legislation may not be fewer than three or more than 90, if it is a local or district council and not more than 270 in the metro, can only be determined when the National Minister publishes the formula to determine the exact numbers.  Members of the House will be aware that the number of councillors will be based on the number of voters registered in the municipalities' segment of the national common voter's roll.

DIVISION OF POWERS AND FUNCTIONS

Chapter 5 of the Structures Act deals with the functions and powers of municipalities.  On the face of it, as the Act clearly specifies what the functions of district and local municipalities are, it should be an easy task to merely endorse and allocate those functions to each local and district council in the establishment proclamations.

Unfortunately, as the Demarcation Board has seen fit to demarcate some new local municipalities in areas which have minimal existing municipal infrastructure, the division of functions and powers between the district and local municipality will have to be carefully investigated.  It may even be that a new local municipality may have only one or two functions and the district council would have to perform the rest of the municipal functions for that council.

Once again, the division of functions and powers should be a relatively simple task but the Demarcation Board has seen fit to demarcate one new district council in an area which itself has minimal existing municipal infrastructure.  How is one to allocate powers and functions between a local and district council when both have no existing municipal infrastructure?

However, members will note that I may only adjust the divisions of functions and powers between a district and local municipality only if I have acted in terms of a nationally prescribed policy framework.  I must also consult the Demarcation Board and consider its assessment on the capacity of the municipality concerned.  As the Chairman of the Demarcation Board has stated that he and his Board will be compiling draft section 12 notices for each of the newly demarcated councils, it will be interesting to see how the Board intends allocating non-existent functions and powers.

We certainly have difficult times ahead, much of which could be avoided if the provinces were given greater powers in relation to the local government sphere.  Each province could then arrive at solutions appropriate to that province, formulated by consultation within the province.  This hon House could itself have then made a very great contribution.  Regrettably, that is not so.

DEVELOPMENT PLANNING

I will now address the function of Development Planning in my Department.  The purpose of the Chief Directorate Development Planning in my Department is to actively promote:

	-	informed integrated development planning; and

	-	security of land development rights, so as to optimise the development potential of KwaZulu-Natal.

In pursuit of this purpose, I am proud to report on the following progress thus far in the financial year:

1.	KwaZulu-Natal Planning and Development Act, 1998 (No 5 of 1998) (PDA) and Regulations

	(a)	The KwaZulu-Natal Planning and Development Act was approved by the Provincial Legislature during the May 1998 sitting of Parliament and the first amendment thereto was passed during the April 1999 sitting.

	(b)	Good progress has been made with the drafting of the Regulations which are currently being finalised in consultation with the portfolio committees for Local Government, Environmental Affairs and Traditional Affairs.  The Act could come into operation as soon as the Regulations are finalised and promulgated.

	(c)	Good progress has also been made with the preparation of an implementation manual for the PDA, as well as an intensive PDA training campaign to ensure that provincial and municipal officials, as well as the relevant professionals, are in a position to make the best use of this legislation once enacted.

	(d)	The Province of KwaZulu-Natal is leading all other provinces in this regard and delegations from the Western Cape, Mpumalanga, Northern Province and Gauteng have been received and briefed on the approach being followed in this Province.

2.	Development Facilitation Act 1995 (No 67 of 1995) (the DFA)

	(a)	Since the Provincial Cabinet resolved on 6 November 1996 to adopt the Development Facilitation Act (DFA) for application in this Province, the Department has managed an intensive progress to bring the DFA into operation, to establish the Development and Planning Commission, the Development Tribunal and the Development Appeals Tribunal.  As with the PDA, we have set out to train provincial and municipal staff and to prepare implementation manuals.

	(b)	Since the enactment of the DFA on 1 June 1998, 11 development applications have been received and processed.  Of particular significance is that all of these applications were processed, considered and finalised within the statutory time period of between 80 and 120 days.  Of further significance is the fact that all of these developments were approved.  This has proved the ability of this Department to deliver on its undertaking and to promote security of land development rights.

3.	Processing of Development Applications

(a)	My Department is responsible for the administration of all legislation and the processing of all development applications related to town planning schemes, the establishment of private townships and non-agricultural development.  In this process developers are given all the assistance possible to ensure the expeditious finalisation of their applications.  The following applications are processed by regional office personnel in Pietermaritzburg, Ulundi and Durban:

	(i)	Applications in terms of the Town Planning Ordinance, 1949, (Ordinance 27 of 1949), relating to town planning schemes, the establishment of private townships and control of the development of land in rural areas and local authority areas with no town-planning scheme control.

	(ii)	Applications for the removal of restrictions on properties in terms of the Removal of Restrictions Act, 1967 (Act 84 of 1967).

	(iii)	Township establishment applications in terms of the Less Formal Township Establishment Act of 1991, (Act 113 of 1991), which provides for shortened procedures for the designation, provision and the development of land, and the establishment of townships for less formal forms of residential settlement.

	(iv)	Applications in terms of the KwaZulu Land Affairs Act, 1992, (Act No 11 of 1922), as well as a range of applications in terms of other applicable township development legislation.

4.	Policy and White Paper on Integrated Rural Development

	(a)	The Department, as convenor of an inter-Departmental Task Team, submitted and obtained Cabinet approval for a Policy and White Paper on Integrated Rural Development for the Province of KwaZulu-Natal in December 1998.  This Department was then also tasked by Cabinet to convene a workshop to manage the implementation of the Policy and White Paper.

	(b)	Although good progress has been made overall with the implementation of this policy, the most encouraging process has been in the progress with the establishment of a pilot rural service centre at Mbazwana.  A business plan for this pilot model has been accepted.  It will now serve as a basis for establishing further rural centres throughout the Province.

	(c)	The concept of rural service centres and the new approach this brings to co-ordinated and integrated service delivery in rural areas, has the full support of all provincial and a number of National Government departments and parastatals.  It has also attracted the attention of the President's Office and the drivers of the National Integrated Sustainable Rural Development Programme.  They may well target this concept for national support.

	(d)	During the Commonwealth Heads of State Meeting recently held in Durban, the British Under-Secretary of State for International Development, Mr George Foulkes MP, together with senior officials of the British Department for International Development (DFID), at their request visited this project.  This British delegation was extremely impressed with the concept and has given a strong indication of financial support to assist with the replication of this model.  Even Amakhosi of the area around there were there, led by the Chairman of the Ubombo Regional Authority.

5.	Provincial Growth and Development Strategy

	This Department is an active member of the task team appointed by Cabinet to assist it with the management of the implementation of Provincial Growth and Development Strategy (PGDS).

6.	Development Planning Support to Municipalities

	(a)	In the spirit of co-operative governance, all municipalities and regional councils, in particular, were assisted with technical and financial support in the preparation for their development plans.  This has led to a situation where all regional councils have made substantial progress with their development plans and they have already started to implement these plans by allocating their respective budgets in terms of the priorities determined through the planning process.

	(b)	These municipalities are further supported in establishing the required capacity to manage the maintenance and implementation of their development plans.  This capacity-building programme is aimed at reducing the dependence of municipalities on outside consultants and to assist them to manage this process in-house.

7.	Demarcation of Municipalities for the November 2000 Municipal Elections

	Although the demarcation process for the municipal elections is the responsibility of the Demarcation Board, my Department has played a critical role in monitoring this process from a provincial perspective.  It has also assisted in the preparation of technical comments on the various demarcation proposals and has been called upon by the Demarcation Board to provide a range of provincial data sets.  It would therefore be fair to say that this Department has played, and is playing, a significant role in the demarcation process.

8.	Development Information Management System

	(a)	My Department has identified the need for an information system that allows for storage, retrieval and analysis of development related information.  This system is required to serve the development interests of all public, parastatal and private developers.

	(b)	The Department has therefore extended its Geographical Information System to cover the entire Province and has consolidated a vast amount of information from many sources into one system.  This system allows both internal and external clients to view, query and analyze any spatially related information either on a computer screen or by producing maps or reports.  Progress has also been made in the regionalisation of this system, so that clients can be served at Durban, Pietermaritzburg or Ulundi.  Selected data has also been served on to the Internet which allows queries to be answered at the lowest possible cost.

Mr Speaker, I now conclude my address by thanking the hon members, and especially you, sir, for your attention.  Thank you very much.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you, hon Minister.

8.5	MOTION:  Noting:
		
	that the colonial image of the Pietermaritzburg Chamber represented by pictures of colonial oppressors has been discarded; and

	n	that on the contrary Ulundi Chamber still retains its KwaZulu Government image in terms of pictures displayed other than those of the Royal Majesties.

		Further noting:

	n	that the Legislature staff is still subjected to a perceived boss-worker relationship; and

	n	that respect is a cherished aspect of African culture, but a master-servant relationship is reminiscent of feudalism.


	This House, therefore resolves:

	n	That for Ulundi Chamber to be accepted for what is should be, ought to display pictures of the State President and the Premier of the Province in major offices;

	n	That pictures purporting to display the government of the day, should be on display in all prominent places.

	Further resolves:

	n	that management/staff relationship should demonstrate a cordial atmosphere expected in any cohesive unit; and

	n	to this effect we entrust the Parliamentary Executive Board to deal with this matter with the utmost seriousness that it deserves.

THE SPEAKER:  Hon member Mr Dlamini, who has got 12 minutes.

MR F DLAMINI:  Sorry, how many minutes?

THE SPEAKER:  12.

MR F DLAMINI:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  I thank you for allowing your House to debate this matter, which is long overdue.  The motion before us touches on the following aspects:

-	Doing away with colonial structures and symbols;

-	A paradigm shift from the erstwhile government images;

-	A challenge to correct our human resources management practices.

On this particular one I would like to refer to the motion itself, which reads as follows:

	That the legislature staff is still subjected to a perceived boss-worker relationship.

A recent example of this type of relationship and an antiquated method of dealing with differences have been displayed by a despicable show-down with one of the subordinates which ended up with an attack against the subordinate by a very senior official of the Legislature.

The next aspect that is being looked at is retaining our respect and dignity as Africans of all shades and hue.

Mr Speaker, perhaps just to underline what I have said earlier on, this House must be aware that, as a Legislature, we are actually going to break a record because we are going to be the first Legislature to be called to the CCMA to deal with a matter of a senior official assaulting a subordinate, which is definitely going to put us into disrepute.

The bottom line or key word of this motion is transformation.  Mr Speaker, my attempt at defining transformation goes as follows:

	A process of fundamental and invasive change that goes to the very heart and foundations of the system that is being uprooted.

The thesaurus defines transformation as a transfiguration; that is, a change of form.

The Oxford Complete Word Finder defines this term as an induced or spontaneous change.

One thing for certain is that transformation in a government institution can never be spontaneous because, by its very nature, the institution only responds to legal directive instruments, namely acts and/or regulations.

If we are serious about transformation in this Province, we need to take a cue from what the White Paper on the Transformation of Public Services says.  We need to concretize the facets that we want to transform.  In setting the scene for transformation, the White Paper reminds us that we inherited a society characterized by socio-economic inequalities, a society deeply divided by racial and political divisions.  The White Paper further stresses that the South African Public Service will "need to be transformed into a coherent, representative, competent and democratic instrument for implementing government policies and meeting all the needs of all South Africans".

With all the brains we have in this Province, we have never spelt out as a clear, provincial objective how we purport to create a socially and economically equitable society.  The Reconstruction and Development Programme was accepted as a government policy that would help us realise socio-economic restoration for our provincial society.  We spent the first five transitional years fighting institutionalised violence in this Province.  Because of pre-occupation with conflict management, we avoided talking about transforming our Province.  Now that we are in a coalition government, we have no choice but to plan for and implement transformation.  We need to be reminded that the only politics understood by the masses of our people are the politics that create jobs and provide food for their children.  We must avoid engaging in a contest of wills.  That time is gone.

After tabling this motion, I received a message that I was being insensitive to what some pictures stand for.  I am as African as any African.  However, I wish to emphasize that, to me, rationality comes before sentimentality.  My argument is that organs of State, public places and government institutions, Parliament and Legislatures in particular, should symbolically and in substance depict the government of the day.

Places mentioned above and offices of public representatives should display pictures of the government personalities and messages driven by that government.  A State President's and a Premier's picture, to me, ought to be displayed in the corridors of power in this Legislature.  But they are not.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

MR F DLAMINI:  Perhaps it is high time we started looking at the question of Ulundi realistically.  If it happens that a number of departments move out of Ulundi, what will be the effect on the economic subsistence for the communities that have grown around here?  We all have a joint responsibility towards these people, whether there is a relocation of certain departments or not.  Let us do this without pushing one another into a brinkmanship type of negotiation.

Mr Speaker, I do understand and appreciate that pressing issues at the time of negotiating a coalition government were:

-	Governance; and

-	Structures of Government.

The question of how the coalition government would attempt to transform this government was not discussed.

I am pleased, however, to advise your House that the Parliamentary Executive Board has given the green light to the Human Resource and Development sub-Committee to go ahead with an organisational development exercise, or a diagnostic exercise.  This is a very serious effort towards transformation that will need the support of this House and the staff of the Legislature.

The exercise will look at the following:

n	The strategy of the Legislature, what plans we have for the future, what the strategic objectives are that we want to achieve;

n	The culture of this Legislature, the vision, the mission and particularly the integration of the different traditions that have become component parts of this Legislature.

n	The human resources structure will be looked at very, very closely to prevent the incident that we have just had.  Like all living organisms, the Legislature ought to have very clearly defined structures.  The exercise will come out with an equitable organogram.  It will do job evaluation and a salary grading system, a performance management system, human density or staffing and conditions of service.

Mr Speaker, having said what I have, I would like to draw the attention of your House to the question of change management.  These are challenges that call upon your Legislature to establish a team to implement the outcomes of the organisational development exercise, a team that would decide on the actual transformation programme, choose the intervention required and implement the whole transformation process.  The management team should comprise all stakeholders, namely members of the Legislature, management, staff, resource staff such as researchers and information technology specialists and representatives of recognized unions where applicable.

In conclusion, I would like to remind political heads of all departments that the Employment Equity Act applies to both private and public sectors.  I have got news for your Ministers in terms of the extent of transformation of their departments.  Transformation, which I choose not to call affirmative action, should reflect the demographics and gender representation of this Province.

Ministers, see yourselves against these demographics and gender.  We have, in this Province: 

Africans
6,880,652
Indians
796,813
Coloureds
117,951
Whites
558,813

MALES
FEMALES
DISABLED
3,950,527
4,466,493
1,004,180

Mr Speaker, the actual reflection of your Ministers' Departments are as follows - I am not going to go through all of them because I see that my time is running out, but what I would like to give you is that of the DDGs that we have ...

THE SPEAKER:  The hon member is left with a minute.

MR F DLAMINI:  47% of them are white and only 53% are African. Kungcono phela mangabe sifuna ukuhlala ndawonye singayi ndawo.  Okunye angisezukusho ngoba akuzukuba ngcono kwabanye abantu.  Ngiyabonga.  [Hon members it would be better if we work together and not pull in different directions.  I will say no more as I might sound negative.  Thank you]. 

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  I will now call upon the hon member Mr T D Ntombela, who has got three minutes.
 
MR T D NTOMBELA:  Ngiyabonga Baba Somlomo, neNdlu yakho ehloniphekile.  Kule-motion ebekwe phambi kwaleNdlu ehloniphekile idinga  ukuthi amalungu ahloniphekile aleNdlu acabange kakhulu uma ekhuluma ngale-motion.

Okokuqala mina David Ntombela ngiyavuma ukuthi akubekhona izithombe zababusi beLanga banamhlanje njengo-State President, noMhlonishwa uNdunankulu wesifundazwe uMantshinga.  Kodwa ngicabanga ukuthi asiqaphele ukuthi uma kungakhona noma ubani ongaba nesiphakamiso othi akususwe izithombe ezikhona njengamanje zamaqhawe.  Amaqhawe lawa engikhuluma ngawo uma ubheka leNdlu yala Ondini amaqhawe enza ukuba thina sibekhona kulomhlabathi kulelizwe esalinikwa uNkulunkulu.

Asikho isithombe esithathwa kumuntu odoba izinhlanzi laphaya sizobhadekwa la, kodwa kuthathwa amaqhawe enza ukuba isizwe lesi esikhona esinamalungu ePhalamende namhlanje yizo lezizinto ezenza ukuba kufakwe lezithombe enizibonayo.

Ngiyazi ukuthi umfaki wale-motion kungenzeka ukuba akakuqondile lokho kodwa uma ekuqondile lokho ngithi akabheke ukuthi umlando wona akufakwa noma ubani ngaphandle kokuba umlando waleyondoda noma leyontombi eyawenza kulengabadi uyafakwake lapho.

THE SPEAKER:  Ilungu elihloniphekile selisele nomzuzu nje. [The hon member is left with one minute]. 

MR T D NTOMBELA:  Ngifisa ukukubeka kucace ukuthi Baba Somlomo siyakuvuma ukuthi kubekhona izithombe zabanye abaholi bezwe ezingekho njengamanje.  Ngakho Baba Somlomo ngithi siyakweseka lokho kodwa asikho isithombe okufanele sisuswe lapha, kodwa lokho asingeze sakuvuma njengamanje.

UJesu Kristu washo ebhayibhelini elingcwele wathi; "Angizile ukuzochitha kodwa ngizogcwalisa".  Uma kukhona izithombe zabaholi okufanele ukuthi zizofakwa eNdlini zePhalamende e-Maritzburg nala akufakwe lezozithombe phezu kwezithombe ezikhona ngoba zikhona, ngoba silandela umbalo kaJesu othi; "Angizile ukuzochitha kodwa ngizogcwalisa". 

LeNdlu umangase ingiseke kulokho kufanele sikhulume ngezwi elilodwa.  Ngiyathokoza Baba.

TRANSLATION:  Thank you Mr Speaker and the hon House.  In order to consider the motion before us, the hon members will have to think deeply.  

Firstly, I David Ntombela agree that there has to be statues of the present rulers, for instance of the President and the Premier of the Province, Mantshinga.  I think we need to be careful of people who suggest that we remove the statues of our heroes.  They are our heroes.  The statues here at Ulundi are of our heroes, from who we inherited this land, the land God gave to us.

There are no statues here of ordinary people, they are all our heroes who have contributed a lot towards this country and its people.


I know that the proposer of the motion did not intend that but if he did he must take the history into consideration.  We do not have statues of just anyone.  It is always of someone who has made his mark on the history of this country.   T/E

THE SPEAKER:  Siyabonga Nduna.  [Thank you, Nduna]

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS.

THE SPEAKER:  Order!  Order!  I will now call upon hon member Mr Burrows, who has got five minutes.

MR R M BURROWS:  Mr Speaker, the Democratic Party does believe that the last two lines of the resolution that is printed, we entrust the Parliamentary Executive Board to deal with this matter with the utmost seriousness it deserves, is exactly correct.

In six years - because we are now into our sixth year of a Parliament, or Parliaments - we have actually undergone a revolution and we have not, within the walls of both this Chamber and its surroundings, and the one in Pietermaritzburg, taken significant consequence of that revolutionary change.  The hon member Mr Dlamini is quite correct.  We do not have a portrait of the President in this building.  We do not have a portrait of the President, or the past President, in Pietermaritzburg.  We do not have a portrait of the Premier in this building, or in Pietermaritzburg.  We do not have a portrait of the last Premier in this building, or in Pietermaritzburg.  Now, quite frankly, that reflects badly on all of us.  On all of us.

You know, we have got to come to a conclusion - and that is why I support the whole matter being looked at carefully, at the Executive Board calmly - as to what we want these buildings to be.  What is this building?  This building, yes, is a debating chamber, but its surroundings around us reflect the history from which we come.  They must do.  You go outside and you look at these magnificent tapestries of Rorke's Drift they are not going to be swept away.  They are part of the history of our Province of which we are all proud.  

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS.

MR R M BURROWS:  You go to Pietermaritzburg, and, yes, I accept that some of the portraits have come down, but there are still symbols there of some of the people that were reflected in that particular Chamber, of Escombe, of Moore, even of Polkinghorn a previous Speaker.  There is nothing there, or very little, about from 1910 to 1990 of the Provincial Council.  That, I believe, needs to be reflected in some way.

But may I also reflect, Speaker, and I take the point on fundamental transformation, we should look at aspects of our history that are not reflected.  The hon member Mr I C Meer has mentioned on innumerable occasions, and Mr Rajbansi, I know, has also mentioned it, the role that that Chamber played in the growth of the character of Mahatma Gandhi, who appeared before the Bar of the Natal Parliament to present a petition of rights.  That must be reflected in that Chamber and we have not done good and well in not reflecting it.  We need also to reflect, because it is part of our history, the role of the people that heard that petition and their reaction, their racist reaction.  We need to reflect that.  It is part of our history as well.

These historical aspects outside or surrounding the Chamber need to be reflected on.  But they need to be combined with where we are now, and I do not go along with the hon Mr Dlamini when he says the Chamber should reflect the government of the day.  I do not believe that.  The government of the day has changed in five years.  Five years ago there was a majority party.  Now you are in coalition.  In five years' time we may be the majority party.  

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS AND LAUGHTER.

MR R M BURROWS:  What we are saying, Mr Speaker, is we cannot adopt the position of to the victor to the spoils.  The victor can put up and the victor can tear down.

THE SPEAKER:  The hon member is left with a minute.

MR R M BURROWS:  If that were the position, then Charles I, who had his head chopped off by the parliamentarians would not have a statue outside the House of Commons as he has now.  There has to be a respect of the totality of our history.

Mr Speaker, I am going to speak a little later and reflect on staff relationships.  Because one of the aspects - and I agree that the Organisational Development Project must have a full overview of what this Parliament is about and where it is going and how the staff relate - is that we must also look at the question of competence.  It must be part of our review aspect and, yes, departments in this Legislature must reflect the nature of our Province, but there must be competence, and people who do not answer telephone calls and people who do not take messages and people who do not respond positively, they must know that they are employed for their competence, not for their colour.  That is terribly important, Mr Speaker.

THE SPEAKER:  The hon member's time is up.

MR R M BURROWS:  I will carry on later.  Thank you, Mr Speaker.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  I will now call upon hon member Mr Volker, who has got five minutes.

MR V A VOLKER:  Mr Speaker, in response to the motion presented by the hon member Mr Dlamini, I would first of all like to point him to Section 83 of the present Constitution, speaks of the President of the country and not the State President.  This is an error which is very frequently made.  The last State President ceased to hold office in 1994.  Since the new Constitution we have a President.

The other matter, he referred to in his remarks was about the need to do away with colonial structures.  If that is the attitude, as we have seen in the rest of Africa it does not augur well for a good relationship of the new multi-racial, multi-ethnic society that has to face the challenges of tomorrow.

He spoke of the necessity to bring about transformation.  We accept that.  We accept that it is an essential element of a transformed political dispensation.  But we should appreciate that transformation should be a process that takes cognisance of a retention of stability and experience as an essential part of good governance.

The mere replacement of staff because of their ethnic identity is not necessarily the only or the best solution.

Mr Speaker, I would also like to make a few comments as a general observation.  Those who always blame others, or the past, for the problems of the present appear to have given up hope in their ability to build a better future for themselves and our present multi-cultural society.  We serve no purpose in constantly blaming the past.

Most of us have experienced driving a motor car.  I want to refer to another symbolic message.  To progress forward we must primarily look through the front windscreen and glance at the rear-view mirror only occasionally, primarily to ensure safe driving. 

AN HON MEMBER:  INTERJECTION.

THE SPEAKER:  Order, hon member Mr Cele.

MR V A VOLKER:  We need to look forward to progress together.  

AN HON MEMBER:  INTERJECTION.

THE SPEAKER:  Order, hon member Mr Rajbansi. 

MR V A VOLKER:  We need to look forward to progress together.  We need to develop our economy.  We need to engender international confidence in our desire and ability to promote a growth economy rather than a hands outstretched, begging economy, or a finger-pointing accusing attitude.  We have to build a future together, all of us.

South Africa and our Province of KwaZulu-Natal enjoy amongst the best developed economies in Africa and the best developed social and welfare structures.

It must be acknowledged that the major contribution towards the developed status of our country can be attributed to the initiative, the planning, the investment and the orderly administration which was introduced to South Africa by the so-called "colonial oppressors".

The colonial oppressors also introduced the tie and jacket.  They also introduced the tie and jacket as Mr Dlamini is wearing.

THE SPEAKER:  The hon member is left with a minute.

MR V A VOLKER:  They also introduced to this country an alphabet, because there was no alphabet before they came.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS.

THE SPEAKER:  Order!  Order, please!  Order! 

MR A RAJBANSI:  On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

THE SPEAKER:  Order!  Order!  Hon member Mr Rajbansi?

MR A RAJBANSI:  Mr Speaker, is it parliamentary for the hon member to insult people who lived here before the white man came, because there were great people, great culture, great traditions and they had language.  Without language you cannot have an alphabet.

MR V A VOLKER:  Mr Speaker, the hon member Mr Rajbansi is deliberately wasting time.  That is not a point of order and he knows it.

MR A RAJBANSI:  I am not wasting time.  Another point of order.

MR V A VOLKER:  Mr Speaker, may I continue?

MR A RAJBANSI:  He is teaching us bad driving habits.

THE SPEAKER:  Order!  Order, please.

MR V A VOLKER:  Many things could have been done differently and could have been done better but, as I have indicated, we now have to build a future together.  To do so, we should look through the front windscreen rather than concentrating on the rear-view mirror.

THE SPEAKER:  The hon member's time is up.  Thank you.  I will now call upon the hon member Miss Thakur, who has got four minutes.

MISS S THAKUR:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  In the new South Africa our traditional characteristic traits should be sincerity, hard work, perseverance and tolerance of cultural diversities.

South Africa has had a delicate history of 348 years of colonialism, apartheid, exploitation, discrimination and human misery.

The history of South Africa is inevitably expressed in photography, sculptures, architecture and other artistic pieces.

Every political photograph, sculpture, painting or architecture tells a story and therefore should be respected thus.

The most symbolic representation of the past, the present and the future in KwaZulu-Natal should be our Pietermaritzburg and Ulundi Chambers, hon members.

We, the members of the Legislature, are the guiding figures as to how we would like our legislatures to look and, of course, this must be in fairness to everybody.

Democracy is a reality and it is only human to desire that the essence of democracy be preserved in inanimate but creative historical elements.

The pictures, of course, of His Majesty the King, as well as our State President and the Premiers of the Province, in major offices in all prominent places are essential, in the view of the Minority Front.

The Minority Front asserts that it would not be a far-fetched idea to create a museum in the Ulundi Chamber bearing the photographs of leaders of all 13 political parties among historical world leaders such as Mahatma Gandhi, Martin Luther King, Malcolm X, Steve Biko, Archbishop Tutu, Mother Teresa and, of course, Nelson Mandela.  Because it is these people who have moulded and infiltrated the universal concept of human rights and peace into the hearts of all South Africans.  This would indeed avoid the unnecessary dilemma of favour and prejudice.

Hon members, if you ask me, our entire buildings in Pietermaritzburg and Ulundi need to be renovated for the future.

Respect for the past must always be considered.

Parliament, of course, is intended to be a centre of activity for MPs, for meetings, for gatherings, a place of research, a place of interest for students as well as the general public.

We need better provisions, a better car park with beautiful surroundings and statues, better lighting, better media facilities, archives, working rooms, reception, dining-room and toilets, more committee rooms and a gym, a public hearing room, modern library, media conference room, a courtesy call room for receiving State guests and parliamentary delegations, a cafeteria and of course, a fountain that works.

THE SPEAKER:  The hon member is left with a minute.

MISS S THAKUR:  Of course, the past has created a vision which needs a lot of hard work to overcome, but we need the spirit of forgiveness to forget and to rebuild.

Now, to staff matters.  Hon members, our intellect and status must not be the only criteria to groom our relationship amongst ourselves.  Therefore the existence of feudalism is not necessary.  In Albert Einstein's wise words,

	Peace cannot be kept by force.  It is only achieved by understanding.

Educational leadership tools are vital to staff development in the way of workshops.

A new way of working is captured by the term "co-operacy", describing collective decision-making.

From the articles in the November News Line, I was very encouraged that the Director of Human Resources and Professor Nxumalo, our Director-General, have a vision for 2000 with regards to employee training and job satisfaction and therefore enhancing service delivery.

THE SPEAKER:  The hon member's time is up.  Thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

THE SPEAKER:  I will now call upon hon member Mr Mzobe, who has got five minutes.

MR M R MZOBE:  Mr Speaker, hon members.  I find it extremely absurd to equate the picture of the Prince of Kwaphindangene with those of the colonial oppressors.  The Prince of Kwaphindangene is the Premier of the Zulu nation.  His grandfather and his father were the Premiers of the Zulu nation.  

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS.

MR M R MZOBE:  Therefore, Mr Speaker, the Chamber of Ulundi retains the pictures of the heroes of the Zulu nation who succeeded the kings who led the Zulu nation against the might of the colonial powers to any battlefield, such as Isandlwana.

Mr Speaker, we cannot wish away our living history.  The President of the IFP was advised and encouraged by the founding fathers of the ANC to assume his hereditary position in order that the liberation struggle of the oppressed black masses could be won in the final analysis, which is the case today.

Mr Speaker, for the ANC to demand the removal of his picture in this Chamber, which is a sign of how much he has worked for this Province and the entire South Africa, boggles one's mind.  

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS.

MR M R MZOBE:  Since, Mr Speaker, the banning of the African National Congress by the National Party Government, there was a political vacuum for 15 years amongst the black community, hence Inkatha Yenkululeko YeSizwe was formed in 1975, with the concurrence of the ANC, which was banned and some of our brothers were incarcerated.

Taking into account what the State President of the Republic of South Africa said during the unveiling of the tombstone in Thokoza, where most of our beloved brothers and sisters who had died during the liberation struggle.  In terms of the motion, pictures must be removed in this very Chamber, including that one of the Prince of Kwaphindangene.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS.

THE SPEAKER:  Order!  Order, please! 

MR M R MZOBE:  Mr Speaker, we can under no circumstances ...

THE SPEAKER:  Order, hon member Mr Mzobe.  Hon member Shabalala?

MISS L F SHABALALA:  Can the hon member take a question?

MR M R MZOBE:  Well, as soon as I finish my speech, my sister.  

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS AND LAUGHTER.

MR M R MZOBE:  Mr Speaker, we can under no circumstances afford to destroy our living history.  Sir, it would have been a different story if the motion proposed to add more pictures of our leaders to the existing ones.

THE SPEAKER:  The hon member is left with a minute ...

MR M R MZOBE:  The removal of our existing pictures would mean that the pictures of our kings who led the Zulu nation to Isandlwana and many other battlefields would be removed.

Mr Speaker and hon members, the statement that members of the staff from the Legislature are subjected to a boss relationship is purely an administrative matter which must be dealt with in terms of the Labour Relations Act. It must not be politicised.  I thank you.  

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS.

THE SPEAKER:  Order!  Order, please!  Order!  There is still a second.

MISS L F SHABALALA:  A question to the hon member.  Was there any mention of any specific name in this House?

THE SPEAKER:  Hon member, are you prepared to answer that question, please? 

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS.

MR M R MZOBE:  I will answer my sister in the new millennium.  

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS AND LAUGHTER.

THE SPEAKER:  Order!  Order, please!  Order, Mrs Blose, please, Order!  I will now call upon the hon Minister Dr Mkhize who has got nine minutes.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

DR Z L MKHIZE: (Minister of Health):  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  We should feel very grateful that we have this kind of atmosphere where we have prevailing peace and a spirit of co-operation and understanding, because it is under such conditions that we can discuss this matter.  It would not have been easy to discuss it in the past when there was tension.  We can now take advantage of the situation to explain, for example, to the hon members who have actually misunderstood what the motion is saying.  For the record, let me just say that there is no call to remove anybody's picture in this Chamber.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

DR Z L MKHIZE: (Minister of Health):  That point has to be made because two hon members who appeared to be debating from the point as though somebody had said, "Remove So-and-So's picture and remove So-and-So's picture" and that is not the issue.  What we are saying is: "Let us portray history in its balanced form".

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

DR Z L MKHIZE: (Minister of Health):  That is what we are saying: "Let us honour and reflect the current status quo and the current day's realities."  History is history, even if we disagree with the events that took place in the past.  We have heard here of funds that have been allocated by the National Government to deal with the issues of the Anglo-Boer War in the promotion of tourism.  The issue there is that we have to correct even that aspect and say: "You could not have had a history of that nature taking place in this country without the involvement of other race groups."

For example, now if we have to understand a picture of Shepstone, or a statue of Shepstone, we can only understand it because on this side we have a picture of King Cetshwayo, who represents our version of the history of the time.  The issue we are raising has in fact been indicated, and I am glad that there is understanding and agreement here.  When you travel through this Province, particularly here in Ulundi, you will not find any evidence that actually reflects anything that has just happened. 

MR T M SHABALALA:  On a point of order, Mr Speaker ...

THE SPEAKER:  Hon member Mr Shabalala?

MR T M SHABALALA:  The hon Minister has indicated that maybe we do not understand this motion.  My question is, does he not feel that we should have discussed this matter out of this area. 

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS.

THE SPEAKER:  Order!  Order!  Hon member.  Is the hon Minister prepared to take a question?

HON MEMBER:  It is a question, not a point of order.

MR T M SHABALALA:  Oh, yes.  Is the hon Minister prepared to take a question?

DR Z L MKHIZE: (Minister of Heath):  No, I am not prepared to.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  Hon Minister, continue.  Thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS.

THE SPEAKER:  Order, please!  Order, please!  Order!  Order!    Asinikeze uMhlonishwa simlalele ukuthi uthini.  [Please give the hon Minister a chance to speak].  Thank you.

DR Z L MKHIZE: (Minister of Health):  Let me also say, Mr Speaker, just for the record, we, as the ANC and members of this House, we understand why there could be a statue of Inkosi Buthelezi in this House, or in any building in Ulundi, because at the moment he is actually the Chairperson of the House of Traditional Leaders, a structure that was created under the new Constitution.  There is no way you can wish him away.  So the issue of actually feeling too emotional about the removal of statues is not the issue and we should focus on the motion before us.

We also understand why you would have a photo of Bishop Zulu.  We understand.  What we are saying is that when we walk around here we need to also reflect the history of what actually happened after 1994, but we must also reflect what happened in the past.  If you enter any police station - I am just giving that as a simple example - you would see a photo of Adriaan Vlok, Louis Le Grange, and every officer in the police force is very proud of that photo.  You walk around and I bet my bottom dollar that not any of us has seen a photo of Sydney Mufamadi or Steve Tshwete.

It is an embarrassment that in the offices of this country there is no photo of President Thabo Mbeki.  In all countries, when a new President is elected his photo is placed in all offices.  We cannot try and deny history, as it were, but we are also asking the question as to when will KwaZulu-Natal start to honour some of the heroes who actually brought about this liberation.  When are we actually going to see a picture of Inkosi Albert Luthuli?  It should be a familiar picture anywhere here where you walk because not only was he a leader but, in fact, he was the forefather of both the ANC and IFP and there should not be an issue even of conflict at that level.

Where, for example, would we have a picture, a boardroom named after Mahatma Gandhi or John Dube, or Rick Turner, or Johnny Makhathini, or Moses Mabhida?  When do we start seeing those, a room that is named after Inkosi Dingane, for example.  We need a balance in our history.  We need to show it in its richness and in its diversity.  We cannot ignore history or even deny that the precedent is taking place.

So it is time for change and we must take advantage of the fact. We must discuss these issues, and we are not stirring any conflict.  We are not causing any misunderstanding of any sort.

Mr Speaker, there is another aspect which is of concern to me. It is actually a matter of serious concern.  The concern of transformation of attitudes is an important issue.  There is also a problem.  I think we need to also understand that we have to accept personalities and symbols of cultural and historical significance of the other members of our communities.

His Majesty the King was the only monarch here who was able to meet Queen Elizabeth during the past few weeks.  Even if Dr Mkhize were to go there, he is not a king.  Even if you are the Minister he is not a king.  And yet we have got a problem in understanding the value that we attach to our own monarchy.

THE SPEAKER:  The hon Minister is left with a minute.

MR Z L MKHIZE: (Minister of Health):  Thank you.  I was concerned to read an article which appeared in the Mail and Guardian.  It refers to "King of jacuzzis and cockroaches".  It also quotes a member of the DP who has had something to do with a Bill that they want to formulate.  Then they say that "Zwelithini spent" -and I quote - "nearly R12,000 repairing three lawnmowers".  Speaking as though he was sitting there fixing these lawnmowers and thus manipulating the funds.

Talking about the companies that have been given preferential treatment, now if you criticize a Minister, it is only because he has got an executive power over the staff and officials, but everybody knows that this is not the case with His Majesty.  The question we are asking is what are they trying to do?  Are they targeting the King because they know he will not be able to respond?  Are they targeting just the community of KwaZulu-Natal?  That is the matter of transformation of attitudes, which, if it is not taken care of, will also be quite disastrous.

THE SPEAKER:  The hon Minister's time is up.

DR Z L MKHIZE: (Minister of Health):  Thank you, thank you.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

THE SPEAKER:  I will now call upon the hon member Mrs Downs, who has got three minutes.

MRS J M DOWNS:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  It is a pleasure to follow the previous speaker.  I really heartily concur with most of his sentiments, so I do not need to dwell on that aspect of it.  I want to instead just focus on one aspect of the motion that has been put forward.  I am speaking about the Legislature staff and the perceived boss/worker relationship and the next point as well.

Mr Speaker, I must note, with serious concern, the report that was carried in today's Natal Witness, where a senior member of the Legislature staff - and my colleague, hon Mr Dlamini, did touch on this aspect - where a senior member of the Legislature staff is purported to have assaulted a member junior to him.  I find this to be absolutely unconscionable.  Without pre-judging, whether he is in fact guilty or not, the fact that a case has been opened at the police station and that there are various aspects being followed up, I think that this Legislature must treat this with the utmost seriousness which it deserves.

Notwithstanding that, there are two things that have been contravened here.  One is our Constitution, which has been contravened in terms of the human dignity aspect of it, where every single person, has the right to an inherent dignity.  Where the freedom and security of a person has been violated and where a person whose right to bodily and psychological integrity has also been violated.  So, not only has the Constitution been violated, but the Labour Relations Act as well.  And even before this incident, I am afraid the Legislature is in very bad standing.

THE SPEAKER:  The hon member is left with a minute.

MRS J M DOWNS:  In fact, with the Labour Relations Act.  When we had our workshop and we looked at our transformation policy, our employment policy and so on, which is absolutely non-existent, we find that we are in contravention of those Acts, and this is a highly serious matter.

So, having said that, I wish to move an amendment to the member's motion, and I hope he is taking note, that:

	Further noting the report in the Natal Witness of today's date, I would like to add that we then move that an immediate investigation into the veracity of the report be launched by the Speaker's office and a report made to the Executive Board at the next meeting.

I hope that finds favour with the member because I really feel that as a Legislature, we absolutely cannot afford to ignore this and we need to move on with the speed and with the will to show that we will not tolerate this kind of behaviour.  Thank you, Mr Speaker.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  I will now call upon hon member Mr Nxumalo, who has got three minutes.

MR S N NXUMALO:  Mr Speaker, first of all I would like to thank hon Mr Dlamini for raising such an important motion.  Indeed, not one of the legislatures in Pietermaritzburg or Ulundi, are up to date in terms of portraying the history by means of photographs. 

The Provincial Parliament should be educational.  It should educate the foreigner, or even our own young provincial citizens about the history from where we come.  It should attract visitors and they should walk around the building, seeing all the history and reading and being educated about what has happened in the past.

To me, the photos and pictures on the wall do not tell the story sufficiently.  They should reflect colonial powers of the past because we come from there.

We have a rich history of being one, among others, that have a known history and a clear tree of Amakhosi.  Therefore, their photos and sculptures should be portrayed.  We should be proud of them as we are the citizens of this Province.

In addition we need to reflect the present government.  We should add our heroic Presidents and Premiers, but not remove what is there.  I need to see Amakhosi there, like Inkosi uZwide, because he has played and important history here.  [LAUGHTER]  Indian history, Boers, English who made history in this country.  This is what should be portrayed in this building.

THE SPEAKER:  The hon member is left with a minute.

MR S N NXUMALO:  In conclusion, Mr Speaker, the staff matters should be dealt with in accordance with the Labour Relations Act.  I thank you.

THE SPEAKER:  Imnandi le-debate ngoba ibuye ithinte namangqimungqimu.  [This is a good debate because sometimes we discuss sensitive issues].  I will now call upon the hon member Mr Burrows, who has got two minutes.

MR R M BURROWS:  Mr Speaker, the hon member, Professor Khubisa, has a tremendous task.  He is, after all Chairman of the Constitution Committee of this Legislature, which hopefully, before we go out of session in 2004, will have created a constitution for this Province.  Within the constitution of this Province he will have to address such issues as the symbols of this Province, what is to be the flag of this Province.  Because certainly that and other things were the issues that the Constitution Committee in 1995 and 1996 addressed.  When he comes to terms with those things, he will come to terms with the need to view through new glasses. Because, as we have had the debate about the coat of arms, above your head, sir, is the coat of arms of the KwaZulu Government of 1970, 1980 and early 1990.  It is not the crest of this government.  It is one of the issues we have not yet worked through and we need to work through it together.

Sir, let me turn, if I may, to the staff relationship and the question of feudalism.  We have got to understand - and I am glad the hon member Mr Dlamini put it so carefully - that the human rights of individual members of staff are sacrosanct.

THE SPEAKER:  The hon member is left with 30 seconds.

MR R M BURROWS:  Finally, let me say to the hon Minister, the Democratic Party respects the Monarch and respects his position.  Answers to questions posed in this House were critical of the Executive Members responsible for controlling the budget.  Those are the ones we are critical of, not the Monarch as an individual.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  I think bengicabanga ukuthi ilungu seliqedile uku-debater.   [I think that the hon member has completed the debate].  I will now call upon the hon member Mrs L G Ngcobo, who has got seven minutes.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

MRS L G NGCOBO:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  This is ...

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS.  

MRS L G NGCOBO:  How rude.  I did not stop you.

I will refer to the motion that Mr Dlamini posed.  I can understand there is a bit of a contradiction, but the two points of that motion read as follows:

	Ulundi Chamber still retains its KwaZulu Government image in terms of pictures displayed other than those of the Royal Majesties.

That, therefore, is a contradiction, or there has been a contradiction in some of the points raised in saying there is no desire to get rid of any of the pictures.

There is a point relating to a master/servant relationship reminiscent of feudalism, which is very distracting in terms of our own system.  Disconcerting when you consider that some people refer to their own cultures as feudalistic.  I am not attacking that, that is the motion.  It stands in direct contradiction with what the hon Dr Mkhize spoke about, which I applaud.  His speech contradicts directly what is contained in this motion.  

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS.

MRS L G NGCOBO:  However, I will also refer to the problem that has arisen somewhere, somehow, which this Chamber has not been informed about.  This Chamber is busy discussing a hearsay story of something that happened somewhere.  Personally, I only heard of it this afternoon.  The matter that is before the police, the matter that concerns the master/servant relationship, I would have liked to know before that event what really the motion was referring to when it said that there was a master/servant relationship reminiscent of feudalism. 

But that was an after-event.  What I want us to guard against is actually getting into an area of a matter which is sub judice.  It might not even be our right to discuss this matter in this Chamber and perhaps even refer it to our sub-committees whilst this Chamber is still uninformed.  I am puzzled by all those things.

However, I would suggest that these matters which are already trespassing on the labour relations field should be referred to the right people to deal with them, and not this Chamber.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS.

THE SPEAKER:  Order, please!  Order!  I always remind members of Rule 53 and 54.  Thank you.

MRS L G NGCOBO:  In South Africa, with its federal structure, it is important to note that honours to her people will and should reflect all levels of her component parts.  There will always be provincial considerations and national considerations.  As such, there is no problem for this side of the House in reflecting the leadership of this country at national level.  We should certainly appreciate the honouring of national figures by statues and portraits on these premises.

What should be paramount, though, in the minds of decision-makers here is that the advent of a democratic dispensation in no way displaces, or replaces, those who fought hard in the past, in whatever way, to sustain and retain the fundamental rights of the peoples of this country.

It grates that in this motion one senses a voice equating the KwaZulu Government with the apartheid structures, colonial structures, as displayed in the Pietermaritzburg seat of power.  From the spirit and words spoken by persons no less than Mr Thabo Mbeki, the President, and Prince G M Buthelezi at Thokoza in Gauteng on 16 October, we know that in different ways the leaders of this KwaZulu Government worked hard, hand in hand, with other eminent leaders of this land, in exile, to liberate South Africa and, in particular, KwaZulu-Natal, from the shackles of the apartheid white rule.

THE SPEAKER:  The hon member is left with a minute.

MRS L G NGCOBO:  Let there be no slight against the portraits and pictures of this Chamber.  Not one of these leaders is tainted in any way.

Ulundi and this Chamber, in particular, were created and carved on the ruins of Nodwengu, King Mpande's place, and Ulundi, King Cetshwayo's seat of his heroic rule.  Nobody in these parts fought harder to keep the great kingdom of KwaZulu as the entity that it is today.  This did not stop in 1879.  The war over the kingdom and its peoples has continued for more than 120 years and at different stages many succeeding sons and daughters of this land have passed on the baton from generation to generation.  The men and women whose busts and portraits grace these precincts have all worked hard in the long relay race.  And so we honour them.

THE SPEAKER:  The hon member's time is up.  Thank you.  I will now call upon the hon member Mr Dlamini to wind up, who has got two minutes.

MR F DLAMINI:  Mr Speaker, in winding up, I would like to re-visit the human resource management and management of the institutions by saying low morale is always indicative of how the staff is managed.  Whereas the Speaker of the Legislature creates the tone and decorum of the running of the Legislature, the Secretary of the Legislature is, or should be, the model of staff management.

I therefore challenge the Parliamentary Executive Board to deal with the matter that has been mentioned quite a number of times in this House.

THE SPEAKER:  The hon member is left with a minute.

MR F DLAMINI:  It disregards how management should actually conduct themselves in front of their subordinates.  I thank everybody who has made a contribution.  The diverse contributions show that our depth of understanding of life around us tends to betray the shallowness or sharpness of our vision.  I thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  Then we have come to the end of item 8.5 on the Order Paper.  We move to item No 8.6 on the Order Paper.

8.6	 MOTION:  Noting:
	
	the urgent necessity for a Revolution of Goodwill throughout the Province of KwaZulu-Natal in which this government and its citizens work in partnership to inculcate values which will encourage self-help and self-reliance and the morality which respects the human dignity and worth of the lives of all men, women and children throughout our land;

	Therefore this House resolves:

	that this government and all hon members be enjoined to work in harmony towards achieving common objectives including the alleviation and eventual eradication of poverty, criminality, indolence, ignorance and corruption in the best interests of all citizens of this Province;

	Requests:

	that this government and its hon members be urged to focus their efforts in constructively prioritizing all matters of real relevance to our citizens and certain hon members should therefore desist from party-politicking which attempts to covertly destabilize this government and jeopardizes economic investment and confidence in our Province.



	Believing:

	that peace, social and economic stability is paramount, calls for persons who are not prepared to work in harmony for this great cause to receive the censure of this hon House.

THE SPEAKER:  Debate by hon member Mr Malakoana.  He has got 10 minutes.  Thank you.  Cindezela.  [Switch on your microphone].

MR M S MALAKOANA:  Mr Speaker, hon members.  In his maiden parliamentary address, President Mbeki spoke of poverty alleviation and rural upliftment as some of the priority objectives of the National Government.  In the same vein, the IFP leader, Inkosi uMntwana waKwa Phindangene, in his Revolution of Goodwill speech, struck the very same note when he listed the challenges of our nation as, inter alia, poverty, joblessness, criminality and lawlessness.  Even the hon Premier of our Province, hon Premier Mtshali, reverberated the message and concentrated on service delivery as the mission of the Province.  One could therefore expect every reasonable and sensitive member of this House to address their minds and efforts to the programmes that are geared towards tackling these challenges, for the nobility, of course, of this struggle derives not only from the fact that they have been enunciated by our leaders but also, and in fact primarily, from the fact that this is the only way to relieve our people of the burden of the injustices induced by the colonial and apartheid past.

AN HON MEMBER:  INTERJECTION.

THE SPEAKER:  Order!  Order, hon member.

MR M S MALAKOANA:  It is therefore with trepidation that one observes that some members of this House, have instead deemed it fit to concentrate their whole efforts on criticising the office of the Premier on its every single step toward ensuring the attainment of the above objectives.

In that light I would like to refer to the recent activism of the hon member - unfortunately I do not see her around here - Mrs Belinda Scott, in this House.  The hon Mrs Scott has appropriated unto herself the melodramatic role of being a professional critic of the Premier of our Province.  While this role may be vital for her political career, as it is probably meant to prove her new loyalty, I for one, of course, feel it is highly exaggerated and in fact unnecessary.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

MR M S MALAKOANA:  While one does not derogate from hon Mrs Scott's right to voice her concern about what she misconceives to be the government's wrong manner of administration ...

THE SPEAKER:  Order, hon member!  Order!  Your microphone, please.

MR R M BURROWS:  I have indicated a point of order, Mr Speaker.  Could the hon member, in terms of the Rules of the House, indicate which words in this resolution he is making his speech about?

MR M S MALAKOANA:  All right.  Let me continue.  The millennium is coming.  And while one does not derogate from hon Mrs Scott's right to voice her concern about what she misconceives to be the government's wrong manner of administration ...

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS.

THE SPEAKER:  Order!  Order, hon member.

MR R M BURROWS:  Mr Speaker, I ask for your ruling.  In terms of the Rules of this House the speech made must be pertinent to the topic that is on the Order Paper.  There is nothing on this Order Paper to the topic that he is making a speech about.  He had better explain it. 

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS.

THE SPEAKER:  Order!  Order!  Order, hon member!  I think that the hon member is still discussing or debating his motion.  I do not think that he is irrelevant.  Thank you.  Continue, hon member.

MR A RAJBANSI:  I am speaking about right mind.  Belinda has got no mind.  [LAUGHTER]

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  Continue, hon member.

MR M S MALAKOANA:  While one does not derogate from hon Mrs Scott's right to voice her concern about what she misconceives to be the government's wrong manner of administration, it is important to point out that there are more important matters on which, in terms of Rule 68, the hon member could show such concerns.

It is my honest belief, Mr Speaker, hon colleagues, that putting our efforts to achieving development and a better life for our people is more important than getting excited about the price of the key to the door of the Premier.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  hear!

MR M S MALAKOANA:  I should, of course, apologise for referring the member, even in absentia, to the incidents that she probably might have forgotten already, but it is crucial that hon Mrs Scott be informed that to be a hero takes more than pestering how much the Premier spends on his security.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

MR M S MALAKOANA:  I do not blame her for caring about non-developmental issues, but of course, I do certainly blame her for caring only about such non-developmental issues.

This Provincial Government, headed, of course, by our hon Premier has got a number of achievements to which only a malicious mind can turn a blind eye.  One may count such achievements in:

	*	poverty reduction;
	*	anti-fraud and corruption campaign;

THE SPEAKER:  Order, hon member.  Hon Mr Lowe?

MR C M LOWE:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  Mr Speaker, will the hon member take a question?

THE SPEAKER:  Are you prepared to take a question?

MR C M LOWE:  Take it!  Money or the box.

MR M S MALAKOANA:  There are only a few days before the new millennium.  Let me continue.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.

MR M S MALAKOANA:  One may count achievements in:

	*	poverty reduction;
	*	anti-fraud and corruption campaign;
	*	this Province is the leader in terms of Y2K compliance;
	*	in terms of improved and direct communication with local government structures;
	*	co-operation with the business sector.

Obviously, this selection assessment of the Premier's performance is crucial to the survival of the political chameleon whose present, but probably transient political shelter, is the Democratic Party.

MR R M BURROWS:  A point of order, Mr Speaker.

THE SPEAKER:  Order, hon member.

MR R M BURROWS:  To call a member of this House a chameleon is not parliamentary.  I ask him to withdraw it.

THE SPEAKER:  Withdraw what?  To withdraw what, hon member Mr Burrows?  Could you repeat yourself?

MR R M BURROWS:  To withdraw the word `chameleon', Mr Speaker.  He was referring to a member as a chameleon.

MR M S MALAKOANA:  Well, maybe the member might have actually misread the Rules in the Constitution, or any parliamentary rule in the Constitution and even in the Rules here, it is not even in this, you know, hon member, I am sorry.

MR R M BURROWS:  Mr Speaker, the arrogance of the hon member is astounding.  I asked you for a ruling.  He appears to be wishing to give it.  Would you ask him to withdraw?

MR M S MALAKOANA:  I have spoken about a political chameleon.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS.

THE SPEAKER:  Order!  Order!  Order, hon member!  

MR A RAJBANSI:  On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

THE SPEAKER:  Order!  Order!  Unfortunately, I do not know the meaning of the word, hon member.  Maybe if it is unparliamentary in terms of Rule 70, do you feel it is unparliamentary?

MR R M BURROWS:  Yes, Mr Speaker, comparisons that have been made in this House in the past to animals, where a person was being referred to as a dog, or a person was being referred to as something else or a snake, have been ruled unparliamentary.  I ask you to call on the member to withdraw it, sir.  

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS.

THE SPEAKER:  Order!  Order, hon member.  Did you refer to an hon member as the hon member is saying?

MR M S MALAKOANA:  Mr Speaker, I have not actually seen anywhere that I have made a mistake.

THE SPEAKER:  Uxolo lungu elihloniphekileyo ngabe ukushilo okushiwo ilungu elihloniphekileyo?   [Can I have your attention hon member?  Did you say what the hon member says you said]?

MR M S MALAKOANA:  No, I have spoken about a political chameleon, therefore I did not say it.

THE SPEAKER:  Okay, thank you.

MR M S MALAKOANA:  Thank you.

THE SPEAKER:  Continue, hon member.

MR M S MALAKOANA:  Obviously, this selection assessment of the Premier's performance is crucial to the survival of the political chameleon whose present but probably transient political shelter is the Democratic Party. I mince no words about saying that.

MR R M BURROWS:  Mr Speaker, with respect ...

THE SPEAKER:  Order!  Order, hon member!

MR R M BURROWS:  Mr Speaker, I am addressing you with a request.  Are you ruling that the word chameleon, or political chameleon, is parliamentary?  Because if you are ruling so, sir, that is fine.  We will just carry on using it into the future and we will use many other words that the hon members may not like.  But I ask you to rule it as unparliamentary.

THE SPEAKER:  Hon member, I am afraid because he has explained, he said that he was referring to a political chameleon.  But I will remind members, please, asisebenzise amagama alungile kuwona wonke amalungu ahloniphekileyo kuzosisiza lokho lungu elihloniphekileyo, ngoba uma sizobizana ngezicalo ezithile kuyasilimaza lokho ngoba kudala leNdlu igcine ingahloniphani.  Ngakho ngizocela sisebenzise amagama ahloniphayo ngoba singamalungu ahloniphayo.  Thank you.

TRANSLATION:  Please let us use parliamentary language.  That will help us hon members because if we continue in this manner we will not be respecting this House.  Therefore I will request the House to use appropriate language because we are hon members.  T/E

MR M S MALAKOANA:  Accepted, Mr Speaker.  If these people were to be in government, surely they would have concentrated on the jets, security and lifts, not on the improvement of the lives of the poverty-stricken people.  Hopefully, the hon Mrs Scott will some day have the wisdom to prove her new loyalty without necessarily disproving the old one.

THE SPEAKER:  The hon member is left with 30 seconds.

MR M S MALAKOANA:  In conclusion, I would advise that we do away with the people whose obvious intentions are to cause division among the people who are prepared to deliver.  Let us do away with people who always contrive plans of causing divisions, who do not work for the upliftment of the people.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS.

THE SPEAKER:  Order, hon member! 

MR M S MALAKOANA:  Let them be taught something ...

THE SPEAKER:  Order!  Order, hon member.

MR R M BURROWS:  Mr Speaker, on a point of order.

THE SPEAKER:  Order, hon member, your time is up.  Order!

MR M S MALAKOANA:  Let them be taught something ...

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS.

THE SPEAKER:  Order!  Order, hon member, take your seat, please.  Take your seat.  Thank you.

THE SPEAKER:  Hon member Mr Burrows?

MR R M BURROWS:  I could not actually believe what I actually heard, but does the hon member actually mean that people should be done away with, which are the words he used.  I ask him to withdraw those immediately.

THE SPEAKER:  Did you say that, hon member?

MR M S MALAKOANA:  Mr Speaker, my time is up, but what I actually said here refers to the action being executed by the members.  I am talking about doing away with the action being done by a person. 

MR R M BURROWS:  With respect, Mr Speaker, I ask you to review the tapes of this because what the hon member is saying now is not what he said previously and he is now lying.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you, I think I will do that.  Thank you.

MR M S MALAKOANA:  Mr hon Speaker ...

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS.

THE SPEAKER:  Order, please!  Order!  Order!  Yes?

MR M S MALAKOANA:  I wonder, Mr Speaker, if it is parliamentary to say I am lying whereas what I was saying is exactly what I meant.  I did not say something I did not mean.  I wonder if it is actually parliamentary.  If that is the case, I wonder if ...

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you, thank you.

MR M S MALAKOANA:  May the hon member withdraw his words, please.  

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS.

THE SPEAKER:  Order, please!  Order!

MR R M BURROWS:  Mr Speaker, I am quite happy to listen to the tape and if I am incorrect I will withdraw the word `lie'.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  Ngicabanga ukuthi sizolalela ama-tapes bese sibona ukuthi athini wona.  [I think we are going to have to listen to the tapes and find out what they were saying].  Thank you.  I will now call upon the hon member Mr Vilane, who has got six minutes.

MR J S VILANE:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  The hon member, when I go through his motion, has raised a number of important issues but, to start with, I have no doubt in my mind that all of us have commitment and goodwill among ourselves to work together.  If that is not the case, Mr Speaker, then we must ask ourselves a question, all of us in this House, as to whose interests are we serving?

To fulfil our mandate we do not only need a partnership among members of this Legislature.  We need a partnership with the private sector, NGOs CBOs and the community at large.  But we need to lead by example, Mr Speaker.  What we are preaching in this House we must practise outside.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

MR J S VILANE:  Mr Speaker, I believe our role as a government shall be that of facilitating and allow the community to control their development.  That is where they will feel a sense of ownership and self-reliance as the member emphasized in his motion.

Prioritisation needs to be the guiding principle.  Income- generating projects need to be encouraged.  Focus needs to be placed on capacity-building where our people will be able to control their own destiny rather than being spoon-fed.  Government must move away from doing things for the people, but we teach the people about development, helping them so that they can help themselves.

Mr Speaker, the day we realise that we need to speak with one voice in this House we will be able to work in harmony without trying to score political points.  That will be the day when we move towards the eradication of poverty amongst our community.  But if we are still preaching to our constituency that if development brought by certain Ministers must not be welcomed, then we are not serious about the eradication of poverty.

In conclusion, Mr Speaker, peace, social and economic stability in our Province, we will achieve the day all of us become angels of peace.  That is why, as the African National Congress, we are calling for a summit which will be attended by the regional and local leadership of the IFP and the ANC and where both Presidents of those two organisations will address that summit.

I feel anyone who is committed to peace, who is committed to partnership, who is committed to working in harmony will support this call without any reservation.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

MR J S VILANE:  Mr Speaker, this is illustrated by the fact that the statement that appeared in Um-Afrika, where a person from the community wrote that - I will quote:  
	
	Sihlanganiswa ngabaphethe emahostela, basifaka umoya wokuthi uma sibona amalungu eqembu lezombusazwe esingahambisani nalo asibolishaya sicoboshise.  Sihlanganiswa ezimbizweni zaMakhosi asiphethe, sifakwa wona lowomoya, kuthiwa asiboshaya sicoboshise.
	Sihlanganyela ezimbizweni zeZinduna zezigodi sifakwa lowomoya wokucoboshisa.  Nasezinhlanganweni zethu zobuholi beqembu sifakwa lowomoya...

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  The hon member has got 30 seconds.  Thank you.

MR J S VILANE:  I thank you, Mr Speaker.

	Ngakho-ke kubalulekile ukuthi abaholi uma besayina izivumelwano zokubambisana basibize nathi thina esiphansi bazokhipha lomoya esafakwa wona wokucoboshisa ukuze sikwazi ukubambisana nabo kwi-peace and stability. 

TRANSLATION:  

	We are called to rallies by the hostel leaders. They encourage us to rise against the opposite political parties.  When we gather with the Amakhosi they encourage us to annihilate our political opponents.  The same thing applies to our political conventions.  

	Therefore it is important that the political leaders include the people at the grass-root level to be involved in the signing of the agreement.  That will encourage political tolerance among us, which will inspire us to co-operate in restoring peace and stability.  T/E

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  Thank you, hon member.  I shall now call upon the hon member Mr N W Ngcobo to address us for three minutes.

REV N W NGCOBO:  Somlomo, kuyangithokozisa ukusho ukuthi lenkulumo mpikiswane yenziwe futhi yenzeka ngesikhathi ngempela, ngempela edingeka ngaso.  Lapho ngicabanga ukuthi wonke umuntu oyilungu laleNdlu nomake omunye umuntu osemgwaqeni uyakudinga ukubambisana, lokho kuyophumelelisa izimfuno nezinswelo zethu, nezabantu abasilandelayo kulesifundazwe saKwaZulu-Natali.

Nomake ngempela, ngempela lokho kubiza intengo enkudlwana mhlawumbe kunalokho ebesingakufisa noma ebesingacabanga ngakho, ngoba ukubambisana kwempela nalokho okuyoba ilokho esikudingayo kuyobiza kuqala ukuzwana, nokubambisana, nokuhloniphana kungaze kwashiwa ngaphandle.

Ngikusho lokhu ngiqonda kahle ukuthi ngaphambi kokuthi umuntu akhone  noma akwazi ukuhlonipha omunye umuntu kufanele aqale afunde noma akwazi ukuzihlonipha yena uqobo lwakhe.  Ngempela, ngempela Somlomo uma ngikhuluma ngokubambisana kuyihlaya futhi kungibanga amahloni uma ucabanga ngalezozinto ezenzakalayo nezibukwayo uma kuhanjelwe khona ezindaweni ezisuke zikhungethwe udlame lwezombusazwe nomake nje imibango yasemakhaya.

Mhlawumbe lapho kubonakala sekuyithuba lokukhankasa kanye mhlawumbe nokuveza ngendlela thize ukuthi nginabalandeli abaningi kuleyondawo, kuphume ukuthi aphume amalungu ehamba eyisigungu ekanye-kanye njengoHulumeni kuyovela ubuqembu phambi kwabantu.

Sengigcina ngifisa ukuba ngisho ukuthi, sicabange ukuthi lapha sonke kulenkundla noma kuleNdlu yakho ehloniphekile sisebenzela ukumelana nobuphofu, izifo nokungazi nokunye nokunye okufana nalokho.  Kodwa mhlawumbe singahamba ngemigomo efanayo kodwa singahambi ngezindlela ezifanayo ngokwemigomo esiyimele emaqenjini esivela kuwona.

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  Wind up, please.

REV N W NGCOBO:  Ngiyabonga dadewethu.  Mhlawumbe indlela esiziphatha ngayo singathi uma sihamba lendlela yokusiza abantu kodwa sehluleke noma sihluleke ukuhamba ngemiqondo efanayo ngenxa yokuthi izakhiwo zamaqembu ethu zingafani.  Ngiyabonga kakhulu.

TRANSLATION:  Thank you Madam Speaker.  I am glad that this debate is taking place at this time as it is necessary.  We need the co-operation of all the members of this House.  This also applies to the ordinary person out there in the street.

This debate will address the needs and grievances of the people in the Province of KwaZulu-Natal.  It is not easy for our people to unite and co-operate because in order for this to happen we need a good spirit and harmony.

In order for a person to respect others he must respect himself.  Mr Speaker I know that some of the members regard it as a joke when we mention co-operation.  I am ashamed about the political unrest and arguments that often take place between the political parties when we visit and have meetings in the community.  This normally happens when the political leaders are campaigning and they try to perform in front of their supporters.  We expect members of Parliament to be united on these issues but once they leave the Legislature they then portray their party political affiliation.

In conclusion, I would request that this hon House commits itself to working towards eradicating poverty, disease and any other related matters.  We can follow the same procedures and methods that our parties follow.

Thank you, Madam Speaker.  Maybe because of our management, we may help our people in different ways because we have different views as we come from parties with different constitutions.  T/E

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  Thank you, hon member, for saving us one second.  I shall now call upon the hon member Mr S V Naicker to address the House for five minutes.  You have the floor, sir.

MR S V NAICKER:  Madam Speaker, we must remember that we have been lost and found in the womb of time.  That is the most appropriate caption for this particular motion.  Having given that caption, I would be failing if I do not commend the hon member Mr Vilane for the contribution that he has made and I think in this House it is absolutely imperative that we must begin to grow above party politics and accept that which is true.  In that regard, the hon Mr Vilane kept within the framework and the spirit of the motion that is before us here today.

Madam Speaker, a revolution of goodwill for the Province is too sacred as an element which should be enshrined in the hearts and minds of all our people as a further foundation to a dynamic democracy into the new millennium.  Having said that, Madam Speaker, I am compelled here in this hour, very painfully, to bring to your notice, falling within the ambit of this motion, which borders on fellowship, brotherhood and above everything else, to be divine-driven, and if I fail to bring this to the notice of this august House then I will be failing my own conscience.  During the election the leaders of every political party signed a code of conduct and, as an Indian, I am now forced to read this:

	An important message to our Indian brothers and sisters.  We forgave you in 1994 and 1996 when you chose to support the white devils.  On 2 June we will not be forgiving.  You will reap what you sow.  The votes will be counted where you voted.  We will be watching these places closely.  We will know who the people in your area have voted for.  Tell every person you know that a vote for a white party is a vote for disaster.  It will not be tolerated.  We are watching you.  You have no choice.  If you want to vote white, stay at home.  Do not vote.  Do not cause problems.  We are watching you.

Madam Speaker, in this historical moment I am forced to bring this to the notice of this House.  I want to believe, as a person that has walked the journey of many agonizing hours in this part of the world, and I want my black brothers and sisters honourably to know that I was born in Nkwalini and lived there for 12 years amongst my Zulu people and I want to honestly believe today that this is not the work of any one of my black brothers or sisters.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

MR S V NAICKER:  And having said that, sir, coming back to the hon Premier of this House, he has timeously made some very, very important statements.  On November 9, in the editorial of the Daily News, he speaks about the NGOs being the chassis of society.  This motion borders on the importance of our communication and interaction with such society, to build fellowship.

Going further, the hon Mr S'bu Ndebele timeously reminded us about what the late Pandit Nehru said as far as the Indian community is concerned.  No longer can a community stand on its own, be it white, black or brown.  This is a multi-racial, diverse South African society which we are committed to build.  Therefore, to see the universe and all prevail in the spirit of truth, face to face, one must be able to love the meanest of creation as oneself and anyone who aspires after that cannot afford to keep out of any field of politics.  Gandhi said this.  That is why my devotion to truth has drawn me into the field of politics, and in all humility I say that those who believe that religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion means.

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  The hon member to please wind up.

MR S V NAICKER:  Great leaders of wisdom and vision always stated that to wipe out every tear from every eye, though that may be beyond us, yet as long as there are tears, so long our work will not be over.  I come back to this point, and I want to believe honestly, having been lost and found in the womb of time ...

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  The hon member's time is up.

MR S V NAICKER:  ... that we will find each other and build the new South Africa that we are looking forward to.  I thank you.

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  Please take your seat.  Thank you.  I shall now call upon the hon Minister E E N Shandu to address the House for six minutes.  Thank you.

MRS E E N KANKOSI-SHANDU: (Minister of Education and Culture):  Madam Speaker, I want to congratulate the hon Minister of Home Affairs, the President of the IFP, for coining the expression "Revolution of Goodwill".

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

MRS E E N KANKOSI-SHANDU: (Minister of Education and Culture):  In a period exceeding 25 years, he has spoken of building the capacity of people to help themselves and be self-reliant by engaging in activities that will eradicate poverty, ignorance and disease.

I further want to congratulate the coalition government for jointly driving programmes that aim at the revolution of goodwill.  For me, the revolution of goodwill is about addressing people's felt needs and this is why I am in Parliament, because I have to look into the addressing of people's felt needs.  It is about ensuring that the bread and butter issues are addressed.

Goodwill emphasises values that need to be promoted and upheld by society, such values as the value of empathy, the value of tolerance, one for the other, the value of love and the value of non-violence.  These are to be driven by government instruments in the hands of every tier of government, be it national, provincial or local.

People of this Province have elected all of us into Parliament because they believe that we can bring about redress and opportunity for each one of them, especially those people who were disadvantaged.  They look to us for hope.  They look up to elected representatives as dealing with one another with respect and human dignity.  They even fondly talk of MPPs as "Our Leaders", irrespective of political party affiliation.

It is for this reason that it is very disconcerting to read in the print media demeaning and derogatory statements that one hon member of this House makes against the leader and leadership of this Province, in the same vein that her party writes about His Majesty the King, talking about the Premier as a tin-pot king, boosting his personal ego.  That is not the revolution of goodwill.

I want to say to you, Madam Speaker, that such statements do this Province an enormous amount of harm.  It gives me the impression that there are still people who do not want to see people living harmoniously with one another and addressing the felt needs of the people.  The sort of damage that such statements make discourages investment and confidence in this Province, our Province which sorely needs investment.

This person seems to have a personal agenda to destroy the credibility of the Leader of the Province through a vicious campaign of character assassination.

What is worrying, Mr Speaker, is that the same person seems to reveal the lust of marshalling even the most intimate details regarding the safety and security of our Premier in pursuit of an agenda that is reminiscent of the dirty tricks of the agents of the apartheid regime.

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  The hon member is left with two minutes.

MRS E E N KANKOSI-SHANDU: (Minister of Education and Culture):  There is no goodwill in such behaviour.  She shows somebody schooled long ago in the art of division.  I would suggest that the hon her leader, Mr Burrows, has a heart to heart talk with Mrs Scott and perhaps she will have the good grace to confide in her leader.

I also want to repeat and say that people who live in glass houses must not throw stones.  This lady also, like all of us, draws a salary and allowances from this Legislature.  I would be interested in her showing the public of South Africa how she spends all the allowances she gets in the improvement of the people who need it so desperately in this Province, the destitute, the people living with AIDS, the people who are ignorant, the people who go on a hungry stomach on a day to day basis.  Then I would understand that she stands for the good of this Province.  At the moment it does not look so.

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  The hon member is left with 30 seconds.

MRS E E N KANKOSI-SHANDU: (Minister of Education and Culture):  I thank you, Madam Speaker.

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  Thank you, hon member, for saving 30 seconds.  I shall now call upon the hon member Mr A Rajbansi to address the House for four minutes.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Thank you, Madam Speaker.  This notice of motion is a very noble one and, of course, if I was the opening batsman of the IFP, I could have achieved the same results in a very diplomatic way.  I am glad that the hon Minister of Education refers to the continuous vilification of the Premier of this Province.  But I want to say to you that there is a nice phrase that ultimately the truth will triumph.

Let us cast our minds back, if you were not there, to the television screen, of the first words which President Mandela uttered to the world.  His first words that came out of his mouth were: "I am not bitter.  Let us look at the future."  And, if you really want to know, the world would have understood if every action of the South African Government after April and every action of the Provincial Government was based on bitterness.  We had an extension of that.  Let us have reconciliation.  Let us have a government of national unity.

I am glad that we have in this motion harmony towards achieving common goals.  South Africa has had many revolutions, but the world will record, and especially in this millennium, that the greatest revolution that brought about change in this country was a peaceful revolution.  We proved the prophets of doom wrong, as India since 1947, has proved the prophets of doom wrong.  Because India has survived, democracy has survived, because its foundation has been built on excellent principles and values.  That is why I always quote two elder statesmen in our country, Mr Mandela and Dr Buthelezi, regularly.

Contrary to what people may say and try to sow the seeds of division, one of the great things that has happened in this country is that we have a government of national coalition and a government of provincial coalition.

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  One minute left, hon member.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Mahatma Gandhi said, if you want to remove trouble anywhere, in the world, in the national sphere, at home, amongst friends, you must concentrate on the mind of man.  If you want peace, let us concentrate on the mind of persons and this is what this motion says, let us have a transformation of the mind.

In 1958 Mr Mandela made a speech about people who adopted different tactics to achieve the same ends.  He repeated the speech verbatim in 1991.  There is no need for cheap politicking.

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  Please wind up, hon member.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Our voters understand one language, bread and butter politics, and all those who believe that they can succeed because they have got finance behind them, they can mislead the people.  They are living in a fool's world, in a temporary world.

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  Your time is up, hon member.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Thank you.

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  Take your seat, thank you.  I shall now call upon Mrs J M Downs to address the House for three minutes.

MRS J M DOWNS:  Thank you, Madam Speaker.  I think I am going to use my very short time to actually ask the mover of this motion some questions.  I just want to lay it before the House that I actually have no problem with sharp debate.  It is a good thing, particularly in the Legislature, and that is what we are here for.  It keeps us all on our toes.

Having said that, I really want to ask him, because when I looked at the motion I actually liked what was contained in it and I was thinking about all of the things that we needed to raise, but when he began his speech I realised that we were actually on something else entirely.  I would like to ask the hon member how his speech contributed towards efforts in constructively prioritising matters of real relevance?  How it constructively put forward matters of peace and social and economic stability and which persons is he calling for to receive the censure of the House because, as I read this motion, he himself, in terms of this motion, should receive the censure of this House.

Madam Speaker, it is a very dangerous thing to stifle democracy.  It is a very dangerous thing to stifle free debate.  This House is put together and it consists of opposition parties and opposition parties are there for a purpose and when government goes around and comes around, you will not always be in power and neither will the ANC, even if you think you are.  This will change and you too will be opposition parties at some stage and you will equally criticize where you think criticism is necessary.

I would like to put it to this House that in fact this motion is a chameleon, because we certainly did not start off the debate by the mover of the motion under the things that he himself raised.

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  Hon member, you are left with one minute.

MRS J M DOWNS:  That is what I want to put to this House and I actually believe it is a great pity because there are matters of goodwill that we could discuss.  There are matters of morality, there are matters that concern the lives of men and women and children in this Province, that we should have been discussing under this motion.  Instead we attacked the tenets of democracy and that I regret.  Thank you.

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  Thank you, hon member, for saving on time again.  I shall now call upon the hon Professor Khubisa to address the House for six minutes.  Over to you, Professor Khubisa, hon member.  

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS.  

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  Thank you for correcting me, hon members.  I shall now call upon the hon member Mr S Nxumalo, to address the House for three minutes.  Over to you, sir.

MR S N NXUMALO:  Mr Speaker, this is an important motion.  The motion is calling for unity in our Province.  Our people voted us into government because they have faith in us.  We all know that as government we have an important task.  That is delivery to the people.

Our people need clean water, road infrastructure, housing and total eradication of poverty.  Therefore we need, as a matter of urgency, to make an environment conducive to job creation.  We need to reduce crime and make our Province free of crime.

As a Province, we are lucky to have all international conferences
taking place in our Province.  This is bringing funds and revenue to our Province.  At the moment we are busy marketing our Province as "Our Kingdom calls".  Indeed, tourists flock in, in numbers, yet we, the people of the same Province, are still divided in ideology as to who, or which party, should be seen delivering.

I am challenging all the political parties here in this Province to put aside their political differences and work hard towards the betterment of the lives of our people.  We should not be seen by the public as differing in opinion.  We have a duty to do.

In conclusion, let us all stand united to achieve a common goal, that is delivery, instead of cheap politicking.  I thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  Thank you, hon member, for saving on time.  I shall now call upon the hon member Professor Khubisa, to address the House for six minutes.

PROF M N KHUBISA:  Thank you, Madam Speaker.  Perhaps the greatest miracle that we as South Africans achieved was to tailor a democracy that would go a long way towards embracing the rights, wishes and interests of all its inhabitants across racial, ethnic, cultural and religious divides.  It is, however, opportune that we remind ourselves that the basic tenet of our democracy is the commitment to serve our people.  This is the responsibility that we, the representatives of the people, bear upon our shoulders.  We cannot afford to pass the buck.  What does this call for, Madam Speaker?

It calls for what I would term electorate constituency prioritisation.  The oath or affirmation that we took as parliamentarians meant that we vowed to be the servants rather than those whose eyes are stuck on material things that reflect our egoistic motives.  It is history that we Africans bear on our backs the wounds inflicted by violence, poverty, hunger, starvation, illiteracy, joblessness and forced removals.

The revolution of goodwill purports to heal all these wounds and the best way of healing them is to empower our people.  We have to make our people involved in whatever we do.  We need to be involved in a process of self-reflection, self-analysis and self-discovery.  This process has to filter down to our people.  In other words, we are advocating a bottom-up approach as we deal with our people.

The most heinous sin of colonialism was to inculcate a sense of insecurity and inferiority among our people.  With the regeneration of Africa, a new breed of leaders is rising like a tidal wave and they are marked by a desire to tap on the massive potential of Africans, first acknowledging that Africans are a people, and a willingness to dynamically transform their lives.

Those who view colonialism and all its tendencies as paternalistic and abominable will have to be challenged to take a walk around the towns of Durban and see the majority of those who are squeezed and cramped in shacks.  It is a scenario, Madam Speaker, of anguish and agony.  Those whose heartbeat is the plight of the people should take a journey to the rural areas and see our people travelling long distances to fetch wood and water.

Those whose hearts feel the pulse of Africa should wake up in the morning and take a walk to the rural areas and see our children travelling long distances of plus or minus 50 kilometres to school, barefoot.  Those whose hearts beat care about Africa should travel the entire KwaZulu-Natal and see vast tracks of land from which most our people were removed.  Forced removals.

AN HON MEMBER:  INTERJECTION.  [LAUGHTER]

PROF M N KHUBISA:  Go to farms and compounds and feel what it means to be a black person who has to be in sack clothing in chilly, cold winters and thunderous rains.  Taste what it means to work for a month and get nothing.  Think of our black children who have qualified for three years or four years, but they are without any work.

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  The hon member is left with two minutes.

PROF M N KHUBISA:  I challenge this House to adopt the revolution of goodwill.

Let us look at the richness of the citizens of KwaZulu-Natal.  It is un-exotic, Madam Speaker, to know and understand that cynics, pessimists, opportunists, pseudo-philosophers and armchair critics bicker incoherently over jets, lifts, salaries, etcetera.  In the process, Madam Speaker, they get lost.  They get lost in a cobweb of self-defeat and self-annihilation.  The struggle for human dignity goes on.  

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS.

PROF M N KHUBISA:  If we achieve everything that is related to the revolution of goodwill, we will at the end shout like Julius Caesar and say: "Veni vidi, vici - I came, I saw, I conquered".

THE SPEAKER:  The hon member is left with a minute.

PROF M N KHUBISA:  And again, we must not foment violence.  You know, the quotation from the paper, if it is not verified, investigate it, because we need to hear the other side, alteram partem, we need to hear the other side.  It will be a way of fomenting the fires and fending the flames if we come with anything that is unverified.  We need to desist from that because we are here to build and to reconcile our people.  I thank you, Mr Speaker.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!  INTERJECTIONS.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you, hon member.  Order, please!  Order!  I will now call upon the hon member Mr Keys, who has got four minutes.

MR R E KEYS:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  The mover of this motion presents this House with a garbled wishy-washy proposal that in essence, Mr Speaker, is a veiled threat against any member of this House who dares to disagree with him and by association, with his party.  I refer to the hon member Mr Naicker's document from which he quoted.  It is another form of the same thing.

Mr Speaker, this motion in essence is, firstly, a disclaimer of responsibility.  Responsibility for effective government by this government.  What the hon member is saying is that, despite the fact that the IFP and the ANC are the de facto government of the day, this hon member attempts to create a smoke-screen to hide incompetencies.

May I quote a few examples, Mr Speaker?

Firstly, this hon member has failed, as Chairperson of the sub-Committee on Flash points, to convene his own sub-committee.

Secondly, as alluded to in an earlier motion, the inability of this government to deliver on a quality education environment and, notably, school text books.

Thirdly, which is more critical, is the poor state of health and security.  I refer here to the inadequate health care given to our own sick and the AIDS sufferers in provincial hospitals and clinics where medicine is not dispensed to AIDS sufferers any more, and to the security threats experienced across our Province, with murders, rapes, assaults and hijackings continuing.

But, Mr Speaker, the second aspect of this motion is that it is a blatant attempt to coerce all members and to co-opt them into their vision.  I refer here again to the hon member Downs who raised the question of valuing the tenets of democracy.  This co-option into a government which is moribund, if one considers the issue of the capital status of this Province, it has still to be addressed.

This hon member invites us all to join him in his quest for an ideal society.  From his proposed resolution he seems to have omitted, Mr Speaker, how he will teach us all to walk on water.

No, Mr Speaker, the DP may agree, and indeed does agree with some of the sentiments of the opening statements of this hon member, but ...

THE SPEAKER:  Order, hon member.  Hon member Mrs Mohlaka?

MRS B S MOHLAKA:  It is unparliamentary to call the government moribund, because that is a dying stage.  Thank you.

MR R E KEYS:  It is a fact ...

THE SPEAKER:  Hon member?

MR A RAJBANSI:  On a point of order, Mr Speaker.  This is the most shameful speech ever delivered in this legislature.  This person should hang his head in shame.  [LAUGHTER]

THE SPEAKER:  Order!  Order!

MR A RAJBANSI:  It is a disgrace!  It is a disgrace!

MR R E KEYS:  That is not a point of order, Mr Speaker.

THE SPEAKER:  Order, please!  Order!  Order!  Continue, hon member.  You are left with a few seconds.

MR R E KEYS:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  The hon member does not possess the ...

THE SPEAKER:  Order, hon member.  Hon Minister?

MRS E E N KANKOSI-SHANDU: (Minister of Education and Culture):  I request, Mr Speaker, that you rule that the member withdraws that word `moribund' about the government because that is both unparliamentary and insulting.

MR A RAJBANSI:  He is behaving like little Hitler.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  Hon member Mr Keys?

MR R M BURROWS:  Could I raise a point of order on that?

THE SPEAKER:  Yes.

MR R M BURROWS:  Mr Speaker, the question of parliamentary language is taken to refer to individual members.  It is not taken even to refer to parties or the government as a whole.  If the hon member had referred to any single member as a moribund individual, yes, I would agree it should be withdrawn, but to the government as a whole, or a political party, I do not believe that it is unparliamentary.

MR A RAJBANSI:  I think Mr Burrows is also ashamed of his member.  I could see his face.  [LAUGHTER]

THE SPEAKER:  The hon member is left with two seconds.  

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS.

MR R E KEYS:  Mr Speaker, thank you very much indeed.  I have been disturbed by this hon member here.  

THE SPEAKER:  Order!  Order!  Hon Minister?

MR A RAJBANSI:  INTERJECTIONS.

THE SPEAKER:  Order!  Order, Mr Rajbansi, order please!  Order!  Let us behave ourselves, please.  Akesiziphathe njengabantu abadala bakithi.  [Let us behave as adults].  Yes, hon Minister?

MRS E E N KANKOSI-SHANDU: (Minister of Education and Culture):  Mr Speaker, it is wrong and unparliamentary the way the hon Burrows tries to defend an unparliamentary application of demeaning words.  Just a few minutes ago, Mr Speaker, if you will remember, he said "liar" and he would not withdraw that because he said, Mr Speaker, you must still refer to the tape.  Now where a member of his party uses unparliamentary language, and refuses to withdraw, I call that contempt of Parliament.  

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS.

THE SPEAKER:  In fact, I would like to refer members to Rule 70, which says that no member shall use offensive or unbecoming language, whether it is referring to Parliament, or to the government, or to members of Parliament.  Please withdraw, hon member, in terms of this Rule.  I will request the hon member to withdraw it.

MR R E KEYS:  Mr Speaker, I will then say that the government maybe is not moribund, but it is very slow to take decisions.  But may I say that as ...

THE SPEAKER:  Order!  Order!

MR A RAJBANSI:  On a point of order.

THE SPEAKER:  Hon member Mr Rajbansi?

MR A RAJBANSI:  Any withdrawal with a condition is not a withdrawal.

THE SPEAKER:  I will request the hon member to withdraw unconditionally, please.

MR R E KEYS:  I withdraw, thank you, Mr Speaker.  This Parliament's job is to ...

THE SPEAKER:  Order!  Order, hon member.  Hon Minister Makhaye?  Uyazi useqede seven minutes bakithi.  [He has almost completed seven minutes].  Hon Minister?

MR D H MAKHAYE: (Minister of Housing):  Mr Speaker, unfortunately I can no longer raise a point of order because the Speaker has ruled.  The word `moribund' has also been used against my own party.  But really, I think this is a concept that is usually used in politics.  I would have preferred that the Speaker did not rule on this particular issue but should have consulted with the Whip.  I have got a problem of stifling political concepts.  I am saying this, even although it has been used against the ANC, which is a partner in the coalition government.  But unfortunately, the Speaker has ruled.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you for that comment.  Hon member, please, I would like the hon member to withdraw unconditionally.  Thank you.

MR R E KEYS:  I have already, Mr Speaker.  

THE SPEAKER:  Please, hon member, let us finish this debate.  Please, withdraw, hon member.  If you have done that, thank you.  Then we move on.

MR R E KEYS:  I have withdrawn already a long time ago, Mr Speaker.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  Thank you, hon member.

MR R E KEYS:  And finally, to close ...

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.

MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):  Mr Speaker, on the same principle as my hon colleague the Minister for Housing has made a point of order.  We are actually busy making parliamentary law and we are setting precedents.  Are we now saying that for evermore that word is unparliamentary?  We have got to be very careful because once you have ruled a word unparliamentary, you cannot allow it the next time round.  You are setting precedents.  You are creating parliamentary law, conventions and traditions.  I think, therefore, that we need to be quite careful.  I would therefore request you perhaps to reconsider.  It is not the individual or the party, it is actually what we are doing in this Parliament.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you for that comment.  Continue.  Complete your speech, please.

MR R E KEYS:  Thank you very much, Mr Speaker.  Finally, Mr Speaker, the hon member does not seem to understand the concept of a loyal opposition and I think that what we need to understand is that Parliament has a job to do to get this Province well governed and well serviced.  No member of this House can be treated like a listener on a radio show where the DJ switches him off.

Nobody must be done away with, Mr Speaker.  Instead, poverty must be done away with.  Once we understand that, that we each have a unique contribution to make to this country, we can then build, each in a different way, not like sheep following one leader.  Thank you.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  I will now call upon hon member Mr Ngidi, who has to eight minutes.

MR N V E NGIDI:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  Before I address myself directly to the motion, I would like to make a few remarks.  We are at a stage in the development of this country where we are entrenching democracy.  Debate is a fundamental tenet of democracy and in debate there will be those who oppose you, at times unfairly, at times unjustifiably, but that is democracy.  I think we need to learn to accept democracy as it unfolds.  I do not think we need to use this House to muzzle people who criticize even our most respected leadership.  If you are in politics, you should expect at one point or the other to be criticized, even unfairly.

Secondly, I think this Parliament should condemn any exercise at sowing racial hatred and disunity.  We should condemn any incidents where threatening language, even in an election campaign, is used.  But then, at the same time, we should be careful what we bring to this House.  We should be in a position to bring something that we can substantiate, not leaflets that have no authorship.  Because we run the risk of being unknowing agents of those who want to destabilise this Province and this government.  We run the risk of being unknowing agents of those who want to sow hatred and disunity, particularly racial disunity, in this Province.  What we hope to defend, we in fact attack.  So we should be careful what we bring to this Parliament.

The motion that has been raised by the hon Mr Malakoana is a motion that deserves to be supported.  The issues that are raised in this motion are fundamental issues that should guide our daily working in this Parliament and as the government of this Province.

Revolution of goodwill is a concept that I agree with in toto. But we should be careful that we do not only mouth slogans when we talk about the revolution of goodwill.  Let it be revolution of goodwill in essence, because the revolution of goodwill, in my understanding, is about giving and is about empowering our communities.  We must be, as this Parliament, able to have developed indicators, in our six years as governing this Province, to be able to clearly identify the progress of our communities.  Revolution of goodwill does not mean that we go out in communities and turn them into political cannon fodder.  That is not revolution of goodwill.

The motion talks about this House having to resolve that all members are enjoined.  Yes, we are.  We do not need this motion to know that we are enjoined to work in harmony.  We have been elected by our people to ensure, amongst other things, that there is unity in this Province.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

MR N V E NGIDI:  That there is peace in this Province.  We cannot therefore come to this House and be agents of violence, be agents of conflict and be agents of disunity.  We would be betraying the mandate of our electorate.  We are not only enjoined now, we were enjoined by the people who elected us into this Parliament.

In his motion the hon Malakoana has unravelled the mystery of certain hon members who are doing what he thinks is not correct, but I do not see any evidence of destabilisation.  Democratic discourse does not in a sense mean destabilisation.  In fact, we thrive through diversity.  It is the sum total of the diverse opinions that should come out of this House that will make this Province have a strong government.  If we do not disagree and if we want to always think with one mind, it means that we will never grow.  Growth comes from the debates and it comes out of the interaction between opposites.

THE SPEAKER:  The hon member is left with a minute.

MR N V E NGIDI:  That we today have development is because as man we have been in an internal struggle against nature.  That is what led into growth.

As I end, Mr Speaker, we do agree that we are called to work in harmony, but working in harmony does not mean that we need to ask mendacious questions of the Ministers whom we are supposed to support.  I thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  I will now call upon the hon member Mr Malakoana to wind up.  He has got two minutes.

MR M S MALAKOANA:  Mr Speaker, hon House, having listened to all that has been said by hon members, may I say that it will be an optical illusion to assume that we can succeed in improving the lives of the people if our being here can be interpreted as a matter of talking about non-developmental issues, as I said earlier on.  For example, like if one refers to what the hon member Mrs Downs has said, she did not say even a thing.  Like the hon member Keys, it was totally irrelevant.  But be that as it may.

The hon member Vilane asked a million-dollar question.  He said: "Whose interest are we serving?"  That is a million-dollar question, and that is what we are here for.

Hon member Raj spoke about our electorate understanding the matters only of bread and butter politics.

THE SPEAKER:  The hon member is left with a minute.

MR M S MALAKOANA:  That is exactly what we are here for, talking about bread and butter politics.

The hon member Nxumalo spoke about people having voted us in.  Water, electricity and so many things.  That is what we are supposed to be doing here and it is so unfortunate that some members here still continue, even now, to speak about issues which are irrelevant.  Sometimes they show the fact that they lack a constituency, they do not have people that they are actually serving on the ground.

We have to build the capacity of the people to help themselves for them to be self-reliant, as our hon Minister has actually rightly said.  Thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  We will move to item 8.7.  Ibhadi enginalo la angazi noma ama-members anayo ikhophi ye-bill.  [I do not know if members have a copy of the Bill].  I do not know whether members do have the copy of the KwaZulu-Natal Conservation Amendment Bill.  Kusho ukuthi imina ngedwa, awubabhikishele.  [It means that I am the only one that has a copy.  Please check the copies thoroughly]. 

8.7	KWAZULU-NATAL NATURE CONSERVATION AMENDMENT BILL, 1999.

MISS F M NAHARA:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  Mr Speaker, I will table the report of the portfolio committee.  Nature conservation in KwaZulu-Natal was invigorated during 1997 with the passing of the KwaZulu-Natal Nature Conservation Management Act, Act No 9 of 1997, which, as the short title thereof implies, dealt with managerial aspects of the amalgamation of the then KwaZulu-Natal Nature Conservation Department and the Natal Parks Board.  It was always intended by the legislators and nature conservation personnel that the law pertaining to Nature Conservation would be subsequently consolidated and the old Nature Conservation Ordinance of 1974 and the KwaZulu Nature Conservation Act of 1992 be repealed.

This was accomplished via enactment of the KwaZulu-Natal Nature Conservation Management Act, Act No 5 of 1999, earlier this year.  During their deliberations the Nature Conservation and Environmental Affairs Portfolio Committee of the first Parliament of KwaZulu-Natal, decided that the 1997 Act should be radically amended rather than repealed and tabled afresh in consolidated from.  Thus the 1999 Act took the form of an amendment Act.  Due to time constraints, when the legislation progressed through the House, a draft of the resultant composite Nature Conservation Statute as amended was only attempted after enactment of the 1999 Amendment Act.

During this drafting process, it became evident that 14 minor technical errors had occurred, being the 12 consequential section re-numbering, which were omitted from the Amendment Act, as reflected in paragraphs 1 and 2 on pages 1 and 2 of the Explanatory Memorandum, one gender irregularity which was not rectified in the Amendment Act, as reflected in paragraph (3) on page 3 of the Explanatory Memorandum, and an error on the re-nomenclature, inadvertently included in the Amendment Act, as reflected in paragraph (4) on page 3 of the Explanatory Memorandum.

Although these technical problems were brought to the attention of the previous Committee Chair by the Committee Legal Advisor during April this year, insufficient time remained prior to the general election to remedy the situation.  Consequently, this proposed KwaZulu-Natal Nature Conservation Amendment Bill of 1999, constituted an important agenda item for the Nature Conservation and Environmental Affairs Portfolio Committee of the second Parliament of KwaZulu-Natal.

Although the committee meeting scheduled during July this year was for the purpose of discussing the future modus operandi and not intended for the actual conducting of committee business, the portfolio committee was apprised that the second Amendment Bill comprised an outstanding agenda item for discussion during the first meeting scheduled after the July recess.  The KwaZulu-Natal Nature Conservation Amendment Bill 1999 was duly considered and approved of during the portfolio committee meeting held on Tuesday, 24 August 1999, although improvements have been effected and rectified thereafter.

The final version of the KwaZulu-Natal Nature Conservation Amendment Bill, 1999, was agreed to by the Nature Conservation and Environmental Affairs Portfolio Committee on Tuesday, 7 December 1999, which was yesterday.

Procedurally, the KwaZulu-Natal Nature Conservation Amendment Bill, 1999 is a Committee Bill, sanctioned by section 119 of the Constitution, which provides that:

	Only members of the Executive Council of a province or a committee, or member of a provincial legislature may introduce a Bill in the legislature ...

Furthermore, the Bill has been initiated under Rule 42(c) of the Standing Rules of the Provincial Legislature of KwaZulu-Natal which reads:

	Subject to the provisions of the Constitution, a portfolio committee shall, in accordance with these Rules and its terms of reference -

	initiate a bill dealing with the category of affairs assigned to the committee.

The portfolio committee is of the unanimous opinion that publication of the KwaZulu-Natal Nature Conservation Amendment Bill, 1999, would result in unnecessary delays and incurrence of fruitless expenditure, since public participation in respect of this technical Amendment Bill is considered uncalled for.  Consequently, we have drafted a motion in terms of Standing Rule 4(1) to be moved without notice under sub-Rule 4(3), which I read this morning, for a resolution of not less than two-thirds of the members present in the Chamber to suspend the provisions of Standing Rules 120 and 129, the latter only insofar as Standing Rule 121(b) requires a copy of the certificate contemplated in Rule 120(1)(b) so as to waive the necessity of publication.  This being a Committee Bill, sub-Rule 122(2)(b) is rendered inapplicable, as is Rule 116.

The Bill and Explanatory Memorandum have been translated into Afrikaans and isiZulu, so copies therefore are available for members who would like to, or who choose to, look at them.

The portfolio committee unanimously support the motion in terms of Standing Rule 4(1) and the KwaZulu-Natal Nature Conservation Amendment Bill.  Thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you, hon member.  Since we do not have the list of speakers to debate this Bill, I think that the best manner to handle it would be to ask each party what their position is.  I will give each party just a minute.  Hon Mrs Cronje?  A minute.

MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):  Mr Speaker, thank you for the opportunity, but I certainly shall not use a minute.  The ANC wholeheartedly supports this Bill and with great joy that we have finally reached this milestone.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  IFP?

MR M M MACKENZIE:  Mr Speaker, I also will not use a minute.  The IFP also clearly identifies itself with the formulation of this Bill and we are justifiably proud, with everybody else in the committee, that it has reached this stage.  We therefore fully concur.  Thank you.

THE SPEAKER:  Democratic Party?

MR W U NEL: (Whip):  Mr Speaker, it took a lot of pain to achieve what I could hardly describe as a milestone, but we would certainly support the Bill.

THE SPEAKER:  New National Party?

MR S MKHIZE:  Mr Speaker, on behalf of the New National Party, we support the Bill.

THE SPEAKER:  Minority Front?

MISS S THAKUR:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  The Minority Front has checked the Bill and we support the Bill.  Thank you.

THE SPEAKER:  ACDP?

MRS J M DOWNS:  Mr Speaker, this Bill is a milestone in one respect.  It is the first Committee Bill that has come before this House and I think we should just take note of that.  With that we support the Bill.

THE SPEAKER:  UDM?

MR S N NXUMALO:  Baba Somlomo, i-United Democratic Movement le ngezinhliziyo zayo zonke iyayisekela le-bill.  [Mr Speaker the United Democratic Movement fully supports this Bill]. 

THE SPEAKER:  Therefore I put the Bill before the House.

THE KWAZULU-NATAL NATURE CONSERVATION AMENDMENT BILL, 1999  -  PASSED

THE SPEAKER:  I would therefore request the Secretary to read the Bill.

THE SECRETARY:  The KwaZulu-Natal Nature Conservation Amendment Bill.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  Then we have come to the end of today's business.  Before we close, I do not know whether the Premier would like to say something.  Hon Minister of Public Works?

REV C J MTETWA: (Minister of Public Works):  No announcement, Mr Speaker.

THE SPEAKER:  I would like to remind members that today we will have a millennium celebration, which will take place at the Holiday Inn tonight.  The function will start at 19:00 sharp.  So, please, ngiyacela wonke ama-members ngoba kwaba isicelo sawo lesi ukuthi...  [I request all the members because it was their request that...].  -  Order, please!  Order!  Order, please!   

Kwaba isicelo sama-members ukuthi kubekhona lelidili likaMkhipheni.  Ngakho ngicabanga ukuthi wonke ama-members azoba khona lapha ngizokwenza irejista ama-members angekho ngizobona ukuthi kusho ukuthi ayengikhohlisa uma ethi afuna ukuba khona, ngibone ukuthi wonke aphelele lapha ngakhoke ngiyajabula.

TRANSLATION:  It was a request from the members that we have a wonderful celebration.  Therefore I expect all the members to attend.  I will have to keep an attendance register to mark those  members absent who do not attend.  Those who do not attend will be forsaking me.  The House adjourns until 9 o'clock tomorrow.  T/E

	ADJOURNED AT 16:55
	UNTIL 9 DECEMBER 1999 AT 09:00

	DEBATES AND PROCEDURES OF
	KWAZULU-NATAL PROVINCIAL LEGISLATURE

	FIRST SESSION 
	 SEVENTH SITTING - SECOND SITTING DAY
	THURSDAY, 09 DECEMBER 1999

THE HOUSE MET AT 09:12 IN THE LEGISLATURE CHAMBER, ULUNDI.  THE SPEAKER TOOK THE CHAIR AND READ THE PRAYER.

THE SPEAKER:  The House resumes.

2.	OBITUARIES AND OTHER CEREMONIAL MATTERS

3.	ADMINISTRATION OF OATHS OR AFFIRMATION

4.	ANNOUNCEMENTS BY THE SPEAKER

THE SPEAKER:  I was hoping that the hon Minister of Transport would give me a salute as a traffic cop.  I would like to welcome the hon Minister of Transport while he is in his uniform.  Thank you so much.  We hope that you will not charge us here in this House for going too fast.  [LAUGHTER]

5.	ANNOUNCEMENTS BY THE PREMIER

THE SPEAKER:  Unfortunately the Premier is not in.

6.	TABLING OF REPORTS OR PAPERS

THE SPEAKER:  Hon Mr Mike Tarr?

MR M A TARR:  Mr Speaker, this is not working.  I would like to ...

THE SPEAKER:  No, no, for recording purposes, I think that we need the microphone.  Now it is working.

MR M A TARR:  Mr Speaker, I would like to table the general report of the Auditor-General on the accounts of the KwaZulu-Natal Provincial Administration for 1996/7.

THE SPEAKER:  Tabling of reports or papers?  Okay.

7.	NOTICES OF BILLS OR MOTIONS

THE SPEAKER:  Hon member Mrs Mohlaka?

MRS B S MOHLAKA:  I shall move on the next sitting day the following motion:

	Noting:

	That Ulundi town occupies a special position in the affairs of the welfare of the Province of KwaZulu-Natal as the venue of most of government and parliament programmes, drawing in large numbers of attendants.

	Further noting that Ulundi TLC is responsible for the bulk service delivery of electricity and water to residential, offices and commercial sites.

	Now this House therefore resolves as follows:

	1.	to encourage co-ordination between the TLC and its major customers such as parliament, for reliable delivery of clean water and other essential services; and

	2.	to urge the TLC to ensure that disruption of service supplies is avoided as far as possible during the parliamentary sittings and other major conferences.

Thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

THE SPEAKER:  Hon member Mr Keys?

MR R E KEYS:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  I will move on the next sitting day of this House the following motion:

	Noting that:

	1.	the N3 Toll Concession (Pty) Limited has increased the toll fees on the N3, and of particular concern at the Mooi Toll Plaza, which was raised by an average of 56%, without due consultation with all affected parties;

	2.	further noting that these increases will have a devastating effect on the economy of Mooi River, especially after the closing down of Mooi Tex Factory; and

	3.	the possible destruction or disintegration of the R103 road and the concomitant danger to pedestrians and residents occasioned by the increased use of the road to avoid the unreasonable tolls by heavy vehicles.

	Therefore resolves:

	1.	to call on the N3 Toll Concession to reverse the increases and to reinstate the original toll fees operational before 29 November; and

	2.	to enter into negotiations with the affected parties and organisations in good faith and with transparency as reflected in their mission statement, to reach an agreement to the satisfaction of all parties concerned.

Thank you.

THE SPEAKER:  Any further motion?  Hon Mr Ngcobo?


MR P NGCOBO:  I will move on the next sitting day of this House:

	Noting that:

	The DP ghosts are haunting the Gauteng Province.

	Believing that these ghosts may soon surface in our Province.

	This House resolves to call on the Speaker to use all his powers, if needs be to summon the powers of his ancestors to exorcise this demon from the dead party thereby from our midst.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS AND LAUGHTER.

THE SPEAKER:  Hon member Professor Khubisa?  

PROF M N KHUBISA:  Mr Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day I shall move as follows:

	Noting with concern a myriad of controversies surrounding the issue of the brief of the Demarcation Board and, further, noting some disgruntlement which entangles the division/demarcation of boundaries, this House resolves that this matter be subjected to rigorous and intensive negotiations and further, these negotiations should embrace both urban and rural areas.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

THE SPEAKER:  Any further motion?  Hon member Mr Ngema?

MR M V NGEMA:  Mr Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of this House I shall move as follows:

	Noting with appreciation the efforts of the Minister of Welfare and Population Development to root out all forms of fraud and corruption within the Welfare sector.

	Further, appreciating the voluntary work performed by the Pension Committees in assisting pensioners with their various needs on pension days.

	Regretting the tendency by some of the Pension Committee members to charge poor pensioners for often unclear services.

	Therefore resolves:

	1.	to ask the hon Minister to explore with the National Ministry and big business, the possibility of at least remuneration as a demonstration of appreciation and encouragement to members of Pension Committees.

	2.	to ask members of this House to take keen interest in the activities of Pension Committees in their respective constituencies, ensuring the proper and corruption free functioning of Pension Committees; and

	3.	to task the Parliamentary Portfolio Committee on Welfare to work closely with the hon Minister to consider establishing a Development Trust Fund to co-ordinate empowerment programmes of the Department such as training for Pension Committees, not possible within the mainstream budget process of the Department.

THE SPEAKER:  Any further motion?  Hon member Mr Malakoana?

MR M S MALAKOANA:  In the next sitting of this House I shall move:

	Noting that 3 December 1999 was the International Day of the Disabled People; and

	Further noting:

	that the disabled people have got the constitutionally enshrined rights and that very little seems to have been done by government in terms of catering for the physically impaired people.

	This House resolves:

	that for this reason, it proposes that special public vehicles, for example, mini buses and special lifts must be established to accommodate them by the Department of Social Welfare and the Department of Transport; and

	that various communities should identify the disabled people in their areas so that these people could be helped by government after their needs have been identified and made known to the international community.

THE SPEAKER:  Hon member Miss Thakur?

MISS S THAKUR:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  I hereby give notice that I shall move on the next sitting day of this hon House as follows:

	That this House notes with great pride that the South African Government has nominated the greater St Lucia Wetlands, situated along the north-eastern coast of KwaZulu-Natal, for World Heritage status.

	That it be further noted with equal concern that the tentative list of proposed World Heritage Sites for the next cycle has only one cultural landscape, being the Drakensberg Park in KwaZulu-Natal.

	This House resolves:

	To request the hon Minister of Nature Conservation and Agriculture to consult with the hon Ministers of Arts, Culture, Science and Technology and departmental officials to identify places of potential cultural or natural heritage in KwaZulu-Natal, hence making KwaZulu-Natal a national and international tourist destination, thereby promoting KZN's economy.

Thank you.

THE SPEAKER:  Hon member Mr Lowe?

MR C M LOWE:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  I hereby give notice that I shall move on the next sitting day of this House:

	Noting that one of the fundamental tenets of a free and a democratic parliament establishes the right of members of Parliament to table questions to members of the Executive. 

	Therefore resolves:

	To acknowledge that in terms of parliamentary standing orders, members of this House have the right to ask questions of the Executive, while members of the Executive have the consequential responsibility of replying thereto.

Thank you, Mr Speaker.

THE SPEAKER:  Hon member Mr Rajbansi?

MR A RAJBANSI:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.

AN HON MEMBER:  Maybe your bug is striking early.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Yes, but we have a special person to exorcise it.  I hereby give notice that I shall move on the next sitting day of this hon House as follows:

	That it is accepted by all the parties in this hon House that the integrity of our Gaming and betting industry must at all times be unblemished and having noted that the Province's casinos are in a state of uncertainty, calls upon everyone to ensure that the proposed amendment to the Gambling Act be dealt with by this Legislature immediately, and further, that this House requests the hon Premier to negotiate with the Minister of Trade and Industry to immediately promulgate rules and regulations; and that the licensing process for site and route operators can commence in our Province.

To be moved by the Minority Front.  Thank you.

THE SPEAKER:  Hon member Mr Ngidi?

MR N V E NGIDI:  Mr Speaker, I give notice that on the next sitting day of this House I will move as follows:

	Noting:

	That many motions and resolutions have been moved in this House, but they do not seem to have been implemented.

	Resolve:

	To urge the Parliamentary Executive Board to make an inventory of motions and resolutions moved in this House and work out mechanisms to facilitate implementation and enforcement of our decisions.

I will so move.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

THE SPEAKER:  Any further motion?  Thank you.  I would like to remind members of Rule 53 and 54.  Thank you.

8.	ORDERS OF THE DAY

8.1	RESOLUTION INCREASING THE SALARY AND ALLOWANCES OF THE PREMIER IN TERMS OF SECTION 6(3)(b) OF THE REMUNERATION OF PUBLIC OFFICE BEARERS ACT (ACT NO 20 OF 1998)

THE SPEAKER:  Hon Mr Burrows?

MR R M BURROWS:  Mr Speaker, I move the resolution that was tabled to members yesterday in terms of Section 6(3)(b) of the Remuneration of Public Office Bearers Act, Act 20 of 1998, pertaining to the salary and allowances of the Premier.

THE SPEAKER:  I will have to hear what the position of other parties is.  ANC?

MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):  Mr Speaker, as the ANC, we have pleasure in supporting this motion and since the Constitution does not envisage a block vote, all 32 of us will vote in favour, those who are present.

THE SPEAKER:  IFP?

MR M A TARR:  Mr Speaker, the IFP support this.  It is a formality that has got to be dealt with and we support it.

THE SPEAKER:  New National Party?  Please switch on your microphone, Mr Volker.

MR V A VOLKER:  NOT ON RECORD.

MR A RAJBANSI:  The Minority Front supports the motion.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  NNP?

MR V A VOLKER:  I am trying to get this thing to work.  Is it working now.

THE SPEAKER:  Now it is working.

MR V A VOLKER:  Yes, we support the resolution.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  ACDP?

MRS J M DOWNS:  We support, Mr Speaker.

THE SPEAKER:  UDM?

MR S N NXUMALO:  We support it. 

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS AND LAUGHTER.

THE SPEAKER:  Order, please!  Order!  Order!  I put the resolution before the House.

THE RESOLUTION AS PROPOSED BY MR BURROWS PUT TO THE HOUSE AND AGREED TO

8.2	DEBATE ON KWAZULU-NATAL ADJUSTMENT ESTIMATES BILL, 1999

THE SPEAKER:  On the list of speakers, I now call upon the hon member Mr F Dlamini to kick-start the debate.  He has got 10 minutes.

MR F DLAMINI:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  I am going to save you a lot of time so that you can move faster towards the end of the second millennium.

The Finance Portfolio Committee met on Wednesday, 8 December, to consider the Adjustment Appropriation Bill as tabled by the Minister of Finance.  The Committee agreed that the Adjustment Appropriation in the main, reflected a re-circulation of money already appropriated.

Secondly, the Adjustment Bill reflected an amount of R916,113 million as a conditional grant.  This amount assisted in the improvement of conditions of service and the funding of the Performance Enhancement Plan of the Department of Health, the building of capacity and improvement in hostels and also provided for the Child Support Grant and for victim support services.

The Bill also reflected the movement of the R213,398 million from our own provincial resources under the Debt Redemption Fund.  The committee also picked up from the Bill that there is an amount of R76,620 million appropriated for the Reconstruction and Development Programme.  This Legislature and the Executive need to give serious consideration on how this money would be spent, considering the problems we have experienced with the RDP funds.

In conclusion, Mr Speaker, we as a committee, would like to express concern about the 4% increase in social grants that was awarded by the National Assembly without an accompanying appropriation from that source for which we have to fork out R138,039 million from the debt redemption resources.

With the above notes, the committee supports the Adjustment Appropriation Bill as was tabled by the Minister of Finance and recommends that the Legislature does likewise.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

HON MEMBERS:  Thank you, hon member, for saving time.  I will now call upon the hon member Mrs Cronje, who has got 10 minutes.

MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  I suppose it is quite appropriate that our Chair of Finance should be so economical with time.

Mr Speaker, I think it is proper for us to congratulate the hon Minister Miller, his Department and senior officials who have steered and carefully managed our provincial budget out of the financial crisis in which we found ourselves at the end of 1997/98 financial year, when we then closed with a deficit of some R1,7 billion.

The hon Minister has reported to us that we are in a relatively positive financial position and that we should end this financial year within budget.  I must say, well done.  What a relief, Mr Speaker, that we are going into the new millennium on that positive note, rather than with a begging bowl in hand.

I have on a previous occasion asked the Minister whether his Department would be prepared to manage my personal finances in future so that I can also earn a nett interest on a huge bank overdraft.  I still am not sure how they do it, but we accept that they did do it.  

AN HON MEMBER:  INTERJECTION.

MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):  But let us remind ourselves, Mr Speaker, that we are still paying off an overdraft of some R677 million and we should not become too euphoric.

Therefore, as far as the financial controls and management of our Province's finances are concerned, we are doing well, but - and of course there is always a but - are we getting value for money?  I have put this very question to the hon Minister at a workshop that we had at the Rob Roy Hotel.  For instance - and let us start with ourselves as the provincial Legislature - and I am now talking about the members in particular - we have just been told that we are getting an increase in salary as members of Parliament.

Are we worth the money that is being spent on us?  I am posing that as a serious question.  Are we fulfilling our constitutional obligations and duties to the full?  Are we actually doing what our constituents expect us to do?  Are we passing legislation?  Are we fulfilling our oversight functions properly, especially as far as the budget is concerned?  It is not only the duty of the Executive and the Department of Finance to control finances in the Province.  Our portfolio committees must, they have no choice, constitutionally they must play an active part in the process by carefully overseeing departmental budgets.

We should therefore say to ourselves, are we meeting often enough?  Is once a month often enough?  Those committees that do not meet, what about them, how do they answer to the electorate?  For instance, our Standing Committee on Public Accounts - and I assure you that is one committee that does meet - has realised that we should be meeting at least twice a week and that we, in all probability, need a dedicated secretary for that committee, if we want to do our job properly, and that is to play watchdog to the Province's finances.

I also want to look at a few departments.  In the Premier's Department, the concern has been expressed that are we getting the revenue from gambling that we should be getting?  The press is asking us these questions.  We are being compared unfavourably to the Western Cape and this is a very serious question.

Let us look at agriculture.  It was my colleague here next to me who said the other day, farmers cannot keep on being emerging farmers.  You emerge and you emerge and you emerge and when do you actually pop up to the top?  So how many new farmers are we actually training, new bona fide farmers, in this Province?

AN HON MEMBER:  INTERJECTION.

MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):  Yes.  Environmental Affairs.  We should be doing an environmental audit and it is very interesting, I have been getting some information from our Auditor-General on the potential for environmental auditing.  It is a hugely unexplored area and I think it is essential that we should be doing environmental auditing.

When you look at Tourism and Economic Affairs.  I am delighted to see the amount that is going to the Philharmonic Orchestra, but I am a bit disappointed that there is not a similar amount or more for the tourism industry which needs it sorely.

Education, I am sure the hon Minister will correct me if my percentages are wrong, but to the best of my recollection some 93% of our education budget, which is a huge budget as we all know, goes to paying personnel.  Are we getting value for money?  A very serious question, a very, very, very serious question.  How are our children doing?  We are about to get our matric results, so let me not try and anticipate anything.  Let us look at the past.  The past track record I would not say is value for money.

We need to start looking at this.  You do not want to just balance the books.  Of course you have got to balance the books, for starters.  If your books do not balance you are in deep trouble.  But having balanced the books, my books can also balance and I can spend everything on perfume, new shoes, etcetera, etcetera.  Are we actually prioritising our budgets correctly, are we spending it on the things that we really should be spending on and then, having spent it, are we getting value for money?

I have become quite influenced by the work we are doing in the Public Accounts Committee because it does give you a very particular insight into the finances of the Province and not always the glamorous view.  If you look at vast amounts, vast amounts of unauthorised and fruitless expenditure - now fruitless expenditure, by its very definition tells you we did not get value for our money.  If the expenditure was fruitless, you may as well have thrown that money on the rubbish dump, because you did not get value for money.  That is precisely what fruitless expenditure means.

And if members - we do not have time, we have got a pile of these documents, these reports by now, just from this year - if you go through them and you add up the millions of fruitless expenditure referred to in these documents, it is a staggering amount.  Certainly that was not value for money and that has to come down and it has to be avoided.

Unauthorised expenditure - in some instances you may actually have had value for money, but it is still very bad that we are sitting with millions and millions and I am sure it adds up to billions of rands of unauthorised expenditure.  I am afraid that the Public Accounts Committee is going to take quite a hard line on that if I read the sentiments correctly.

We had public hearings with the Department of Works, a couple of days ago.  The mind boggles.  We could sit and go through that document, word by word, comma by comma, and every sentence poses a new problem and a new riddle around the issue of fruitless and unauthorised expenditure.

THE SPEAKER:  The hon member is left with a minute.

MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  In fact, I think I have said what I wanted to say, so thank you very much and I am terribly happy that this shall be my last speech for this millennium.  Thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  I will now call upon hon member Mr Tarr, who has 11 minutes.

MR M A TARR:  Mr Speaker, I am not sure whether it is in order for one hon member to steal another member's speech notes but I have a feeling that is what Mrs Cronje has done overnight.  Mr Speaker, I was going to speak in much the same vein, but I will try not to be repetitive, simply to say that what Mrs Cronje says, I believe she has hit the nail right on the head.

At the outset, let me also congratulate not only the Minister, but all the departments who have stayed within their budgets and in doing so are managing to get the Province on a sound economic footing.  All I can say to the Minister is I hope that between now and the next three months there is no `slapriem' as they call it, that is going to appear and cause problems as far as meeting our budget is concerned.

What Mrs Cronje says is quite true.  It is all very well to budget, and it is all very well to keep within our budget, but keeping within our budget there can still be a myriad of problems out there.  For example, is all the money properly spent in terms of a compliance audit?  Do you comply with all the necessary laws and regulations?

From a financial basis, do the statements which are tabled here in front of the House, actually reflect the true position of a department, and in some cases, they actually do not.  You cannot really believe what is tabled in front of us.  If you take the accounts for 1996/97, which the Public Accounts Committee has just finished looking at, on a financial audit, only seven of the 16 departments got an unqualified report.  If you look at the compliance audits of the 16 departments, only four got an unqualified report.  I am not saying that these qualifications were always serious qualifications, in some cases they were, but they were qualified.

I would like to strike a slightly different tack, because in the new year we are certainly going to be moving into a total new ball game with the implementation of the Public Finance Management Act.  For example, if that Act were implemented strictly today, I have got no doubt that half the accounting officers in South Africa would probably be sitting in gaol.

Let us just look at one or two sections of the Act.  Sections 38 and 39, and these deal with the general responsibilities of accounting officers, and 39 deals with accounting officers' responsibilities relating to budgetary control.  Mr Speaker, there are two pages which detail the responsibilities of accounting officers.  Let me give you just a couple of examples for the purposes of this debate in order to see how we would perhaps measure up.

For example, 38(a)(2) deals with internal audits.  The Province setting up an internal audit function.  Not only do we deal with internal audits, the internal audit must be controlled and guided by an audit committee.  The majority of the people on the Audit committee must consist of people who are not even in the Department, but people from the private sector, for example.  I know that our Minister has taken steps in setting up an audit committee for the Province, but in terms of actually establishing an internal audit function, which we are going to have to do in terms of the Act, it is a fairly major undertaking.  We are looking at possibly a hundred people or more we are going to have to be appointed to do this particular job and I wonder whether there is even provision for that in next year's budget.  My view is that it is going to cost money, but it will save a lot more money than it actually costs.

I might say also that we are one of the few provinces - in fact, at this stage, the most advance province - in terms of setting up an internal audit committee.  Other provinces are taking their cue from us, but we still have a long way to go.

Section 38(c) deals with the responsibilities of an accounting officer regarding collection of money.  Our hospitals, we are not collecting what is due.  It becomes an offence under the new Act not to deal with that.

Then 39(d), managing of assets.  Again it becomes an offence for anyone who negligently or wilfully does not control their assets properly.  Many departments do not have a proper assets register.

Then, of course, there are disciplinary steps that are dealt with in the Act as well, and these are draconian, Mr Speaker, for example, any accounting officer who does not comply with the provisions of the Act is subject to disciplinary steps, which can actually lead to gaol of up to five years.  This is not gaol because of theft or dishonesty, it can also be gaol because of straight incompetence and not doing the job properly.

What I am really saying, Mr Speaker, is that in the new year when this Act comes into effect, the Act is supposed to come into effect on 1 April, whether it does or not we will still have to see, but it is certainly going to create a whole new ball game as far as control of finances is concerned, as far as value for money is concerned, it is something the internal auditing sections will be looking at.  They will possibly also be dealing with efficiency standards, so we can measure if we are getting value for money.  But quite clearly, Mr Speaker, what we do need is that all our departments, there should be some mechanism to establish to what extent they are ready to comply with the provisions of the new Act.

I also believe, Mr Speaker, that members in this House, we could very well do with a workshop which would in detail explain to us the implications of the new Act and our responsibilities as parliamentarians, as members of portfolio committees, our responsibilities in seeing that the provisions of the Act are actually adhered to.  I would hope that the hon Minister, early in the new year, will make some provision for the departments, obviously, and also for the members in this House, to have a thorough briefing on the new Act so we can be ready to, as a Province, go ahead and implement its provisions, which I think will result in substantial benefits for our taxpayers.  Thank you, Mr Speaker.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  I now call upon hon member Mr Lowe, who has got eight minutes.

MR C M LOWE:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  I am seriously concerned this morning, there does indeed appear to be a gremlin around, I do not know if it was the ghost of Christmas past, it might even be the DP ghost, but it appears that somebody has been looking at everybody else's speaker's notes sometime over the last 12 hours or so.  So, forgive me, Speaker, I shall also try and be as economical with information as I can be.  It will certainly be to the point and I will try to skirt around many of the issues that have been covered by the two previous hon speakers.

Mr Speaker, again, could I just start out by thanking the hon Minister for his speech yesterday and congratulating him in his capacity as Minister of Finance in this Province.  His speech was erudite, it was illuminating, it was illustrative, it certainly, Mr Speaker, was not moribund in any way.

The hon Minister has a fine track record, I know personally as Minister of Local Government.  I believe that KZN is fortunate to have a Minister of his calibre as Minister of Finance and as we will always agree to disagree on certain points, I know he will respect that as well.  I want to thank him and his Department, his senior officials, we are served very well by them and I think we are all very much aware of that this morning.

Money or finance, Mr Speaker, literally oils the wheels of government.  We can stand here all day and we can talk and make fine speeches, but at the end of that day it is the money that makes things go around.  Without it, we cannot deliver those services we talk about.  We cannot provide the direction that leadership should deliver.  We cannot even sit here and pontificate without the lights being switched on and our salaries being paid.

So the budgeting of the provincial moneys, Mr Speaker, and the proper custodianship and stewardship thereof is fundamental to a province that is serious about its responsibilities and serious about improving the lives of so many people that live in this Province.

Value for money is what the hon Mrs Cronje spoke about.  It was an issue that I wanted to pick up on this morning because it is all very well to budget, but what do you budget for and what comes out of that process?

The facts show, Mr Speaker, that in many respects KwaZulu-Natal is indeed some way down that road to serious budgeting, serious delivery.  Unfortunately, that seriousness about proper budgeting, proper controls, proper accountability, appropriate delivery, has been held back by a number of, certainly in my experience, qualified audit reports by the Auditor-General and other instances of fruitless expenditure, poor budgetary control by various departments, poor financial planning, no financial planning, internal controls that are not appropriate, or whatever.  That is something we have to deal with, that is something that this Legislature must firstly thank the Minister of Finance for in his role in making sure that those controls are in place in his own Department, but also assist the Minister in ensuring that those controls become a fact of life in every single department in this Province.

The hon Minister has a lonely job at times, Mr Speaker, a difficult job and an unpopular job.  That is the nature of being a Minister of Finance, but the Democratic Party acknowledges his input and commits itself to strongly supporting him where we feel that we can support him and obviously disagreeing with him where we need to, but continuing in our efforts to support him in his role.  It is not for nothing, I think, that Mrs Cronje has made the point about a positive note on which we enter the new millennium.

Mr Speaker, much of what the Minister has spoken about in his speech is encouraging, even laudable, the management of cash flow, for example, there do remain areas of concern, about areas of government allocation and government spending.  I raise these concerns, Mr Speaker, to draw all of our attention, to areas that require greater effort.  A combined, multi-party onslaught, if you like, to ensure that we confront hard facts and make tough choices that will see better use being made of our provincial resources.

There are tough decisions to be taken, Mr Speaker.  With respect, we have avoided taking one of these tough decisions.  One of those areas is our concern over the use of R232,398 million, allocated for specific functions to various provincial departments from the provincial debt redemption reserve.

What this appears to say, Mr Speaker, is that rather than using R232 million to pay off some of our debt, it has been necessary to rather use these moneys to top up the budgets of various provincial departments that have either overspent their allocated budgets, or may indeed even be the subject of poor internal controls and accounting administration, fruitless expenditure, fraud, theft or even corruption.

The point I wish to make, Mr Speaker, is rather than forcing the respective departments to confront their shortfalls and re-double their efforts to improve the functioning of their departments, the hon Minister appears to have effectively bailed out those errant departments at the expense of debt redemption.  If this is so, Mr Speaker, we urge the Minister to increase pressure on errant Ministries, to confront and deal with the shortcomings, to ensure that proper controls and appropriate procedures are in place in their departments and to curtail and obliterate the scourge of corruption, of fraud, of maladministration and certainly the negligence that leads to the inordinate amount of fruitless expenditure that we have seen in recent weeks in this House and in the Public Accounts Committee.  That is a hard choice, Mr Speaker, it is not a popular one and it is a hard choice that my party believes, should have been taken yesterday.

If indeed the R232 million was transferred to various provincial departments because of authorised or even necessary over expenditure - pension and welfare cheques spring to mind - or even the pay increase for members of this House, the fact that we have had to dip into our debt redemption reserve remains worrying.

The early redemption of debt, or at least at its earliest opportunity, is paramount and a fundamental concept of good financial management.  Ask anybody paying off a mortgage bond, or running a credit card just how quickly and frighteningly interest on interest mounts up.  Debt redeemed early means more money for services, like education, delivery of text books, health and welfare services and housing.  

THE SPEAKER:  The hon member is left with a minute.

MR C M LOWE:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  It appears, Mr Speaker, to us that in this one area in particular, the Minister may wish to give even greater attention and one to which members of Cabinet may well need to assist him.  As I have said, it is a tough job, but we know he is up to it and he will have our full support.

Mr Speaker, in conclusion, financially speaking, this Province has much to be proud of.  While the Minister and his departmental team have deserved our commendation and our support, there remains poor financial control, maladministration, fruitless expenditure, etcetera, although I hasten to say not in the hon Minister's Department.  But nonetheless, these incidents remain a blight on the landscape of this Province on this House.  It affects all of us.

We cannot allow the good work of our Department of Finance to be undermined by the activities of errant departments.  Tough choices, Mr Speaker, need to be made.  Tough action needs to be followed through with tough discipline.  We need value for money.  I believe the feeling in this House this morning is that we want that to happen.

THE SPEAKER:  The hon member's time is up.

MR C M LOWE:  We must make sure it does.  Thank you, Mr Speaker.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  I will now call upon the hon member Mr Volker, who has got seven minutes.

MR V A VOLKER:  Mr Speaker, while it may be so that praise from the opposition could also mean an albatross around the neck of the Minister, I believe it is due to him.

AN HON MEMBER:  Not the albatross, I hope.

MR V A VOLKER:  Not the albatross.  But we must on behalf of at least the opposition members, express our appreciation for the considerably improved financial discipline and control over expenditure that has been introduced by the Minister.  In mentioning that, I think it is also worthwhile saying that we also have appreciation for the financial control and discipline that has been introduced by the National Minister of Finance, Mr Trevor Manuel.  Let us acknowledge what is right and say so openly.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

MR V A VOLKER:  Mr Speaker, the reason why it is necessary to refer to that is that in the Auditor-General's report that has just been tabled for 1996/97, we still have certain very negative reports that are referred to.  For example in 1996/97, the total unauthorised expenditure by the various departments exceeded R500 million.  I am pretty certain that that will not apply for the year 1999/2000.

The amount of theft and losses reported in this report that has just been tabled, exceeds R5 million, and that does not cover all the losses, it does not cover losses in the Transport Department, for example, as a result of cars that cannot be reported on.  It is concerning that such large amounts can be lost as a result of theft and not to mention the amounts lost as a result of corruption.

It is not only the Minister's Department that is involved in ensuring that better control be exercised because I believe that all the portfolio committees of Parliament have also realised that they have a role to play and in their monthly review of the department's expenditure, they are playing an important role in bringing about an interaction between the Administration and the Legislature in ensuring financial discipline and control.  And that is a positive step that will lead to the recognition of a move towards a better Administration, towards administrative excellence.  Let us express our appreciation as far as that is concerned.

Some other matters that I think bear mentioning.  We have the anomaly that the cost per learner in education, in this Province of KwaZulu-Natal, is almost half of what it is, for example, in Gauteng.  If there were to be an equitable distribution in terms of the actual mandatory cost of spending per learner, we should be getting a considerably higher contribution from the national fiscus than we are getting at the moment.

The situation arises because a large percentage of workers from this Province migrate to Gauteng to sell their labour there, but they leave their families here.  Consequently, the children in this Province form a greater percentage of the total population than in Gauteng.  If the distribution of allocation to provinces is based on the total population, then it is very clear that in terms of cost per learner, this Province is just not getting sufficient to be able to measure up.

But let us not harp only on the negative aspect.  What is essential, I believe, is that we must realise that if you are not strong financially, then you have got to be smart.  If you are not strong, you have got to be smart, you have got to produce better and there is a tremendous scope for improvement in the discipline in the education of the various schools.  There are still large spots of weaknesses in the schools' administration.  Teachers not always being on their posts; principals being absent from their posts for long periods, as has been reported.

If we are left with the inevitable of insufficient funds, let us at least move towards getting smarter in using the money that we have available to be used more effectively so as to produce better results.

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  There is one minute left, Mr Volker.

MR V A VOLKER:  I did not hear that?

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  One minute left.

MR V A VOLKER:  Thank you.  The other aspect that I would like to refer to, even though it has been stated that there is a considerable economic investment in this Province.  I believe that the investments that we are getting in this Province are frequently of a high-tech nature where the investment exceeds R1 million per job created.  What we need here is an expansion of job creation.  We need a greater attention to SMME's so that we can create more jobs.

The unemployment rate in this Province is just too high and we need to channel our economic development not only to encourage investment for large projects, but we also need economic investment for small projects.  We must make use of the opportunities that are offered.  For example, a partnership arrangement has been offered by the Baden Wurtenburg State of Germany and I believe that we are not making sufficient use of those opportunities that have been offered and that have been signed contractually, but that have now virtually been put on the back-burner.  So we have a tremendous scope for improvement in our economic generation, generally.

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Volker.  I gave you a three seconds bonus.  The next speaker will be Mr E S Mbatha for 10 minutes.

MR E S MBATHA:  Thank you very much hon Speaker, hon members.  I do not think I will take 10 minutes.  I will be as economical as possible.

Mr Speaker, I am persuaded to believe that I am echoing the deep-seated sentiments and appreciation and pride of this hon House when expressing words of gratitude to the hon Minister of Finance Mr P M Miller, for the most meticulous and efficient manner in which he and his Department have handled the finances as the Provincial Parliament of KwaZulu-Natal.

A word of sincere gratitude has to be conveyed to the hon Minister for the manner in which he crafted his skills and expertise in handling the past budget with a deficit of R1,7 billion.  We therefore welcome and embrace with confidence the assurance given by the hon Minister that in spite of the unfunded mandate regarding the increase in the payment of pensions, we are likely to be in the same position before we were hit by the problems.

Mr Speaker, we have to proceed with the negotiations to help us out of the problem and quagmire of the unfunded mandate which was elucidated in the hon Minister's speech.  We do hope that the trust, understanding and co-operation, the hon Minister spoke about yesterday, between the provincial Treasury and other departments of the Province, will ensure that the hope of the poorest of the poor in the Province are being met.  It is this trust, understanding and co-operation that gives us hope that united in this House and the departments of the government, we shall eventually face up to the challenges of poverty, HIV/AIDS and other disasters facing our people in this Province.

Finally, Mr Speaker, I would like to support the additional sum which we received from national of R916,113 million, which is an additional amount to our Finance Department to sort of augment our budget until the end of the financial year.  With those words I would like to thank you, Mr Speaker.  Thank you.

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  Thank you for saving us seven minutes and six seconds.  Very economical.  The next speaker will be the hon member L Johnson for 10 minutes.

MRS L JOHNSON:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  A precedence has been set of saving time and I am going to do the same because what I wanted to say has been covered by the speakers who spoke before me.  I would also like to join the chorus and congratulate the Minister of Finance and his Department, for the job well done of ensuring a healthy financial performance.

The Minister attributed their success to team work and co-operation between the National Finance Department, Provincial Treasury, the Finance Portfolio Committee and the departments.  Mr Speaker, I hope that spirit will continue and be maintained.

The Minister also indicated that all departments so far are operating within their budgets and there is a possibility of having a small saving at the end of the financial year.  That is good news to us.  The remaining four months of the financial year are critical and I hope the departments will adhere to their budgets and minimize any possibility of over-spending.  The big departments as is indicated in the report, like Education, Health and Social Welfare, has managed to stabilise their budget.  Again, that is also good news.

The Minister also said that we are coming from dark days.  I am sure that we do not want to go back now that we have seen the light.  We must continue to improve our financial management.

Mr Speaker, there is a need for a paradigm shift as alluded to by speakers before me, in particular the hon member Mrs Cronje.  We need not only concern ourselves with rands and cents and balancing the books.  I am going to repeat what has been said by all the speakers by saying that we need to ask are we getting value for money?  Is the budget improving the quality of the life of our people, in particular, women and children.

I believe that we can move in that direction because there is some capacity.  All we need to do is to say yes, we are moving in that direction of being able to say what we get from our budget, we can quantify and move towards a stage where, in our budget, we will be able to reflect the performance indicators.

Once more, I would like to say to all the departments, the Minister and all the senior management in the Department, well done and keep up the good work.  I thank you.

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  Thank you very much, Mrs Johnson, for saving us so much time too.  Then our next speaker will be hon member Mr A Rajbansi for six minutes.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  The Minority Front also wants to sing praise for good reasons, for the excellent work that has been done by the hon Minister, the Head of the Department of Finance, all other Ministers and all other departments.  We can safely say, after having heard the hon Minister at the Finance Portfolio Committee and also at the workshop of the Chairpersons of Committees, that our finances, or the management and the control of our finances are safe in his hands.

We have had a very sad period.  We have had a very bitter period.  But there was a commitment, a real commitment on the part of the Premiers of our Province, on the part of our Ministers and department, to root out the evil of corruption, mismanagement and bad administration.

We accept that we were not given a fair allocation as far as equatability is concerned, but the Minister has given us figures for the next five years which show that we compare very favourably with the other provinces as far as our justified criticism in respect of the allocation of funds is concerned.  But we must bear in mind that we must use our money, in spite of the fact that we complain that we have not got sufficient money, economically and efficiently.

We must also take stock of the fact that at the end of this year when the hon Minister of Education and Culture is going to announce the matric results on 27 December this year, one-tenth of a million new matriculants will be produced and they require opening of opportunities.  We have to create jobs.

I want to suggest to the hon Premier to let us have a weekly score sheet of delivery.  Every minute there is delivery in this Province - I am not referring to the delivery of babies - but the delivery of development.  Every minute something new is happening, either we are giving out contracts, building projects are continuing, and we are creating new jobs, etcetera.  Why do we not tell the people that this is happening - how many people in this Province did not have clean water.  Thousands of people are now getting water.  Thousands of people are getting homes, instead of continually painting this Province black.

We must not be unmindful of the fact that the portfolio committees are now playing a stronger role in the oversight function in ensuring that every department keeps to the budget and there is economy and efficiency in the utilisation of our finances.

I want to suggest to the hon Minister of Finance, do what Margaret Thatcher did, let us look at our assets that are under-utilised.  If you drive around you see many schools that are built on large areas of land, land that can be sold.  Let us start selling our stock.

I want to suggest to the hon Premier, let us get our casinos off the ground as quickly as possible because we are losing revenue.  Let us get our site and route operators in operation because they can create jobs, they can provide us with revenue and in terms of our Gambling Act, provision is made that a certain percentage must be used towards the promotion of local government and local authorities in our Province.

To the hon Minister we say thank you for work well done.  Remember these prophetic words of Dr Anton Rupert, that the price of success is eternal vigilance.  We must work very hard to aim to go higher, but we must also work equally hard to maintain the successes that we have achieved so far.  Let us all be united. Let us all be united that we will have no petty party-politicking.  If you have got one criticism to make, make sure that you mention to the public there are 10 good works done by the Province.

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  The member has one minute to go.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  Thank you for saving us a minute, Mr Rajbansi.  The next speaker will be hon member Mrs J M Downs of the ACDP for five minutes.

MRS J M DOWNS:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  I would like to just begin by echoing my congratulations to the Minister and his Department, they surely have done a really good job because when Mr Volker made his speech he did not even go far back enough, because if you look at the records for the previous KwaZulu Government and the Provincial Administration combined, there were also huge unauthorised expenditures.  It has been a long standing situation, which he inherited, and then had to deal with it.  He and his Department and they have certainly done an outstanding job to reduce that and we cannot do anything but congratulate him.

I would like to pick up, however, where the hon member Mrs Cronje started and where the hon member Mr Mike Tarr continued, on just one or two aspects of the issues that they mentioned and maybe look at them from the other side.  When the hon member Mrs Cronje mentioned and asked the question, are we getting value for money, I had to think about how we could actually implement some of the things that she was suggesting.

I really believe that the portfolio committees, the Public Accounts Committee and the Finance Committee need to do more in terms of interrogating the finances of the departments.  In order to do more, they have to be given more tools and this is really what I want to dwell on, the capacity, both in the Provincial Legislature and the capacity in the departments, because that is where I think there is a problem.

If the portfolio committees, in their three-hour a month meetings, were to give enough time to the finances of the departments that they are overseeing, there would then be no time for policy aspects and aspects of the department that are very important to the constituencies.  We need to give serious thought as to how we can more effectively do this.

Then, when you look at the Public Accounts Committee and the Finance Committee, they have a very basic and important role to play on behalf of this Legislature, and we need to look at the importance of those two committees because that oversight role is utterly vital.

We could begin, particularly in the Finance Committee, to look at things which need attention now, that we do not have to wait two or three years before they come up in the Public Accounts Committee to deal with.  In order to do this we need tools and I believe that the Legislature is going to have to give us those tools.  Part of the tools we need is to have access to a forensic audit team, independent of the departments because whenever we interrogate departments, we have to rely on their word and we cannot come to our own conclusion.  Both committees need access to that kind of issue.

We need a specially trained and equipped researcher for both committees, a researcher who has knowledge of accounting practices and programmes, who has knowledge of auditing, for example, who would be able to send to do specific qualified research for us.  That will go a long way towards improving the ability of the Legislature to fulfil an oversight capacity in a better and more focused manner.

We need to give serious thought - and I have no solutions to offer at the moment - as to how to equip the portfolio committees to oversee each department financially.

The second thing I want to talk about is capacity in departments.  There are departments, and accounting officers, I think, that are just plain incompetent.  I will not particularly dwell on who at this stage.  But the one thing that we have uncovered, time after time after time, in our public accounts committees - and this is maybe something that the Minister and his Department can take a lead on is to build the capacity in the departments.

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  The member has 56 seconds to go.

MRS J M DOWNS:  I cannot remember if it was the Auditor-General or the Head of Finance who told us, that out of all the registered accountants in the country, some 16,000, only seven are working in public service.  That is not just in the Province, that is across national departments and provincial departments.  Seven accountants, seven qualified CA's, are registered in the public service.  That is what they told us in one of the committees.  So it shows me that we have a really serious lack of financial administrative capacity in our departments.

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  The member may take her seat.

MRS J M DOWNS:  When I think of for example of the Education Department where they just did not have the ability to oversee to the extent that they should have.  This we must pay attention to.

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  Thank you for heeding the call at last, of sitting down.  The next speaker will be Mr S Nxumalo for five minutes.

MR S N NXUMALO:  Mr Speaker, I would also like to thank the hon Minister of Finance, Mr Peter Miller, for the effort put into this job.  It was well done.  Even before I became a member of this Legislature I heard good reports.  Today I have heard it myself.  Uyinkunzi.  [He is a bull].

To have a department that exercises strict discipline in managing the provincial budget, will yield a good name for the Province.  I was so moved by the fact that communities will benefit from this adjustment.  I am sure that the National Minister will be proud to have a province like KwaZulu-Natal.

I would like to cite something on the RDP funds.  The Minister reports that we have R76 million to spend.  Hon members, we have learnt the lesson in the past.  We can now manage our projects better because we know what happened in the past.  The relevant department should take the RDP to the people.  There should be clear guidelines which are transparent and known to the communities.  Project development and management should be entrenched in all funding proposals.  All funded projects should be followed up to make sure that the funds applied for are spent correctly.

I would like to touch on the SAPS.  This is an important department which must be empowered to deal with crime effectively.  I was expecting it to be given more than just a mere R1,000 as has been reported.  Most of the police stations report that they do not have the necessary equipment to deal with crime, especially during the festive season.  We need all the resources to improve the capacity of the police.  I know that this is national competence, but as a Province we must do something to help the situation in the Province so that the situation of the tourists should be improved.

To save time, Mr Speaker, I would like, in conclusion, to say, Mr Minister, to control the provincial budget, is a mammoth task.  You cannot do it all by yourself, and we are all there to help you.  Count on the UDM to help you.  Thank you.

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  Siyabonga elungeni elihloniphekile ukuthi angadedeli isikhathi sakhe sidliwe yinja kodwa asishiye ngapha.  Ilungu elihloniphekile uMnumzane u-Nel usezothatha imizuzu eyisithupha ukuthi asinikeze inkulumo yakhe.  [We thank you for saving us time.  I now call on the hon member Mr Nel to deliver his speech.  He has six minutes.]

MR W U NEL: (Whip):  Ngiyabonga Mhlonishwa Somlomo.  Mr Speaker, many members have congratulated the hon Minister and the Department of Finance today.  Where there was chaos, they have brought financial discipline.  Where there was gross overspending, the Department has pulled in the reins and where there was a lack of accountability, the Department has at least been helpful, even helping this House to monitor and to establish better accounting and reporting standards and accountability by departments.  So yes, the Democratic Party would also heartily congratulate the Department and the Minister on their performance.

We would also like to congratulate another political party with whom we have countless differences and conflicts on many issues and that party is the African National Congress.  We would like to congratulate them on a specific area of performance and that is in the field of monetary and fiscal policy and establishing of discipline.  I must tell you that that is the one thing that I never believed they would do, or have the guts to enforce and they did it.  There are many other things that I thought they would do, that unfortunately they do not do even to this day, but in the field of financial policy, I think they did better than any of us could ever have expected, or perhaps some of us could have done ourselves.  So yes, thank you for that.

But now we have to start looking at the issue of value for money, as the hon member Mrs Cronje, Mr Tarr and others have said.  Unless we get value for the money that we have saved with our discipline, then we are also not going to win the battle.

The hon Mr Rajbansi referred to job creation and the need to monitor development and to actually keep a check of our progress, perhaps as a way of forcing us to act.  I would endorse that.

Mrs Cronje asked whether we, as members, can justify the salaries we get.  Not because necessarily the salaries are so high, but because our performance perhaps is not as good as it should be.  And often, I must tell you, the answer, I think, is definitely no.

I want to refer to some of the activities of this House, and the first example that springs to mind is the Bill that was passed yesterday, the KwaZulu-Natal Nature Conservation Amendment Bill.  That little technical Bill has been around on the tables of this House since July and we have had one embarrassment after another.  There really was nothing to it.  When it came to the debate yesterday, there was no debate, but it took us from July this year until 8 December to get it passed.  It is disgraceful and we wasted a lot of time and money in the process.

The second one is the Peace Committee.  For years there has been no proper oversight over what they are doing, no decision has been taken, they do not meet when they should and we still drag our heels on this issue.  We should act, that would give us value for money.  Decisions give us value for money, not procrastination.

The third couple of items that I would like to refer to is the airport, the port and SDI's.  Again, good intentions, but short on the implementation, and we have got to get that rolling.  I hope this Minister of Good Intentions is actually going to do what he said the other day and to actually deliver some results.  I would remind him also on that other piece of legislation, the Business Rehabilitation Trust Fund Act, and I hope we will get results on that score too.

That brings me now to the issue that we saw in the papers yesterday and that we are fighting about even now, and that is the one of gambling.  In the Mercury of yesterday there is an article: "The Tale of Two Cities" and contrary to popular belief, that has nothing to do with Ulundi or Pietermaritzburg, but in fact is a comparison between Cape Town and Durban and it says that:

	While a casino licence has been granted for Cape Town in a fast-tracking arrangement that has shaved eight months off the process of agreeing to a R1,5 billion investment, KwaZulu-Natal is yet to get into place the necessary enabling legislation and rival bidders still drag the matter through the courts as the legislative vacuum continues.

Now they say this is a too familiar tale:

	Casino licence issue has been a disappointing chapter of government in KwaZulu-Natal...

the article goes on to say.

And then there is also another article on the next page, much along the same vein, but where it compares us again to the Western Cape and it says that:

	Readers would remember that there was a lively debate on various alternative strategies for implementing major development projects in the Province.  However, some major KZN projects, including the casinos, were being delayed as a result of bureaucratic and legalistic problems, rather than anything directly related to the development strategy.

By contrast, yesterday's Mercury Business Report carried a story about R140 million being committed by a successful casino bidder in Cape Town for the development of a new international convention centre in the Cape Metropolitan area and that would, the commentator said, then bring the score to three against one.  We have an ICC, they will soon have that, plus a casino, plus the Waterfront developments.  So we are lagging behind and the reason is that we are bickering.  This gambling saga has gone on for years now.  Just in the aeroplane yesterday I saw the magazine Sky, and it says: "Party on, Dudes", and it talks about the Wild Coast Sun, about Monte Casino at Four Ways and about Caesar's in Gauteng.

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  The member has 30 seconds to go.

MR W U NEL: (Whip):  All of those provinces have gone ahead.  Mr Speaker, I would submit there is nothing wrong with our gambling legislation, we simply have chosen to create a political squabble where there is no legal problem and we should actually just simply have gone ahead and implemented what we could have done three years ago.  Thank you.

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Nel.  The next speaker will be hon M Mackenzie for 10 minutes.

MR M M MACKENZIE:  Mr Speaker, hon colleagues, including the hon Sheriff of the Highway Patrol.  That uniform sends shivers up my spine every time I look at it. 

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS AND LAUGHTER.

MR M M MACKENZIE:  Mr Speaker, it is my pleasure to add my voice to the praise given to Minister Miller for a job well done.  It has not been easy.  He had to be tough, but he did it in a professional way and he deserves all our praise for his performance.  He has managed to stay inside budget and he is still on the path of rectifying outstanding loans and I am quite confident that that will happen.

I do have a concern, and it is not about this Minister, it is about the allocation of provincial budget moneys.  There are nine departments that he services, but it is the allocation again, as I say, which concerns me.  We have a small tax base in this Province, it is not large and we are heavily taxed.  In the allocation, we understand that the Big Three must get the largest slice of the cake, that is understandable, but it must be remembered that they are not contributory in their operation, in other words, they do not contribute revenue to the general account.

Why I say I have this concern is that if you look at tourism, you do not require massive infrastructure in order to get tourism off the ground, but they do need - they do need a good, solid kick-start in order to get moving.  Am I speaking your language, Minister?

The other one is conservation, which is going on a diminishing budget and this diminishing budget is against all odds, because after all, if you link tourism with conservation, you are looking after one of the most popular destinations for tourists in our Province.  However, you will find that conservation literally is sucking the hind tit.

If you look at agriculture, that is a delivery Ministry and you will find that we have talked, as an hon member said earlier, that we say we are going to see this and emerging farmers are emerging again and again and again.  However, it is the installation of systems that can instill confidence amongst starter-farmers and until such time as they have got confidence in their market and they are trained to handle their finances, you will find that this is not going to take off.  Agriculture needs an injection of a training programme on a very large scale, short courses if need be, and thus be able to use its budget money to better effect in serving the people.

You will know that the Minister's discretionary fund is minuscule, but thank God for that, that it is there, in that it can look after those things that happen, because no-one is able to forecast that there will be no mishap in every department and we are thankful that this Minister is there to operate this discretionary fund, although it is still small and actually can be called minuscule.

There is a continuing need to clamp down hard on corruption and embezzlement.  We are looking at money that should go towards delivery of the very poor people of this Province.  It is being embezzled and almost like a flash, it is away like a flight of larks.  We beg and implore that a higher investment be given to those Ministries that I have mentioned in order that they may return equally higher revenues.

Lastly, we MPP's, I wonder how many of us are reluctant to tell this House what our voters think of us and our efforts.  I am continually embarrassed because I am blessed to know a little bit about this wonderful language, Zulu, therefore I understand what our voters are telling us, and this is what they say, nenzani nina layindlini asiniboni, asiyiboni imali yenu sibona o-Mercedes kuphela.  Nina nibakhulu kabi kodwa asitholi lutho thina siyoze sithole nini silambile thina.  [What are you doing in this House because we do not see any money, only Mercedes'.  You are our superiors but we do not get anything from you.  When are we going to gain?  We are hungry]. 

I therefore beg and implore again, all of us, to redirect our focus towards servicing those people who put us in power.

I thank you once again for your time and I repeat my congratulations to the Minister.  Thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you, hon member.  I will now call upon hon member Mr Mohlomi, who has got 10 minutes.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

MR T S MOHLOMI:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  Like the speakers who have spoken before me, I wish to congratulate the Minister of Finance, Mr Miller, for his very good and informative speech that he delivered yesterday on the Adjustment Appropriation Bill.  I also wish to congratulate the Minister for the very good way in which he has handled the finances of this Province.

I also wish to voice my appreciation for the good way in which the Secretary for Finance, Mr Shabalala, is handling the finances of this Province.  I believe, Mr Speaker, without him, even Mr Miller would not do what he is doing.  I believe also that Mr Shabalala is one of those officials employed by this Province, who knows what he is doing, he knows his job.  In fact, I believe that he is one of those unsung heros of this Department.  Keep it up, Mshengu, we thank you for that.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

MR T S MOHLOMI:  Before I continue with my speech, I wish to remind this House of where we come from in terms of our expenditure in the past few years, especially in the financial year, 1997/98, when some of our departments exceeded their budgets and the National Minister of Finance had to intervene in terms of Section 100(a) of the Constitution.  Understandable as it was, Mr Speaker, that some departments had to exceed their budgets because of the challenges and unexpected circumstances that these departments faced, it still remains a serious blemish in the history of this Province that this happened.  I am happy that we came out of that situation and in fact, presently we have been informed that we can even make some savings on our budget.  That is indeed a commendable achievement.

I however wish to mention, Mr Speaker, that although many departments have managed to put their house in order, in terms of putting in place proper financial controls and ensuring that we minimise unnecessary expenditure, and ensuring that we can account for each and every cent that we spend, it is clear that some departments are not prepared to move forward towards tighter controls of our finances at all.  I do not wish to mention these departments by name, but members of this House will know them when a report from the Public Accounts Standing Committee is tabled before this House.

Despite numerous reports which were tabled and endorsed by this House, it is clear that some departments are not ready to implement some of the recommendations and resolutions of this House, which are aimed at improving controls over our finances.  I believe, Mr Speaker, that it is high time that we begin to act against those officials, including MEC's responsible for those departments, who do not want to carry out decisions of this House.  I believe, as members of this House, we have gained enough experience to see whether departmental officials are not doing their job.

It is true that during the past five years of our new democratic Parliament, most of us who had no experience in Parliament did not know much about how departments work.  Because of that inexperience, departmental officials used to bamboozle us with big terms and quoted from various statutes to justify their inability to perform.  We know now, we know the laws, we know how to run the budgets and we are going to catch them.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

MR T S MOHLOMI:  Mr Speaker, we now know the laws that govern the operations of the departments and it is for this reason that I say we must begin to act against those officials and MEC's who are not doing their job.

Last year, during the finance debate, I said it is a common saying in the public service that if you are employed in the public service, then you are working endaweni ebizwa ngokuthiwa  ithafa lokufela izimbongolo.  [When you are employed by the public service you work under difficult conditions].  This is because people know that no-one is dismissed if one is working in the public service, no matter how inefficient the person might be.  People do not get dismissed here.  I believe it is high time that heads must roll.

During the departmental hearings that the Public Accounts Standing Committee has had with various departments, there have been many common problems like not keeping all the vouchers, ridiculous subsistence and travel claims, over-payments, etcetera.  The problem is that if you ask the accounting officers what steps they have taken to remedy the situation, they all say that they have issued this and that circular, and that is it, that is all.  Yet, the problem persists.

If you ask them what steps they have taken against those officials who do not want to adhere to procedures, the answer invariably is "Nothing", or "We have spoken to them", and it ends there.  This is not enough.  If we really want to carry out our job efficiently in this Province, we have to do more than just speak to people and issue circulars.  We must begin through our human resources departments to put clear procedures in place that will ensure that we deal with inefficient officials as speedily as possible.  In some cases, people who have even committed corruption, corrupt activities, are still working in the departments or they are still being paid while they are on suspension, by these departments.

As members of this House will know, I am one person who is a great defender of workers' rights, but I, myself, cannot defend people who do not want to perform their functions correctly.  I am not advocating the wholesale dismissal of people, but I am saying that if people do not deliver, they must move aside and give way to those who are prepared to do their work.

It is not departmental officials - to echo the words of Mr Mackenzie - who get blamed for lack of delivery in this Province, it is us, the elected members of this House, who people look upon to deliver.  So if we do not deliver, we get the blame for lack of delivery.

Let us learn from the private sector, Mr Speaker.  In the private sector there are clear procedures, even the Labour Relations Act does allow us to act against those officials who do not want to perform their jobs properly.  You give a person the necessary training, if you identify lack of capacity as the issue that makes the person not to deliver.  If he continues not to deliver you issue him with a first warning, a second warning, a final warning and you dismiss the bugger.  Forgive my French, Mr Speaker.  But you dismiss the monkey, he must go.

The other issue I wish to touch on is the issue of capacity building within departments.  It became clear to me that one of the main reasons that contributes towards the inability of officials to perform, is lack of capacity.  I believe we must begin to invest more money in training our staff.  This may be a big expense to us now, but will result in the long term savings that will benefit this Province greatly.

I also wish to echo the words of the hon Mr Nel, that we need to broaden our tax base in this Province.  The issue of casinos is long outstanding.  We will be getting a lot of revenue from the issuing of those licences and we need to speed that process up.

The collection of traffic fines.  I am happy that the hon Minister is in his uniform today.  I am sure that when we leave this Legislature today he will make sure that each and every member who owes traffic fines here will pay them.  Starting with me, of course.  

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS AND LAUGHTER.

MR T S MOHLOMI:  So we need to broaden our tax base, Mr Speaker, to ensure that we collect the revenue that is due to this Province.

In conclusion, I also wish to support the passing of this KwaZulu-Natal Adjustment Estimates Bill.  I thank you, sir.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  I will now call upon the hon Minister to reply to the debate.  Thank you.

MR P M MILLER: (Minister of Finance):  Mr Speaker, hon members, may I start by saying how deeply I and my Department appreciate the congratulations and thanks that have been expressed to both the Ministry and the Department by virtually every member in this House.  It is deeply appreciated and perhaps it could not be improved upon, as an end of year Christmas and Millennium present from you all to us.

In particular, I appreciated the fact that the senior officials in the Department were specifically included in those expressions of thanks.  And I want to say for the first time publicly and for the parliamentary record, that indeed my Secretary, Mr Shabalala, does know his job and that indeed we have built a unique relationship of Secretary to Minister and together we have built a unique relationship with the Rainbow Team which consists of Miller as Minister, Shabalala as Secretary, Professor Kusi as Head of Treasury and Mr Naicker as the Accountant-General, the perfect Rainbow Team.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

MR P M MILLER: (Minister of Finance):  I want to thank too the co-operation and help that I get from the portfolio committee and in particular the portfolio committee Chairman, Mr Felix Dlamini.  It is a pleasure to deal with a gentleman and I appreciate the report that he tendered here today in support of our Adjustment Estimates.

A number of members, who I will not necessarily highlight individually, have dealt with the very, very vexatious question as to whether we as an administration, now that we are relatively confident that we have control of expenditure from an over-expenditure point of view, as to whether that which we are now spending is actually generating value for money.  I want to urge this House and all its members and every portfolio committee to commit ourselves in the first year of the new century and the new millennium to actually set a target of getting value for money.

It is my candid and frank view that we cannot honestly say that we are getting value for money in every aspect of our administration at the present time and although there have been remarkable improvements in recent years, the fact still remains that there are those sectors in our broader administration where value for money is an unknown concept.  I do not want to sound as a person who has some vendetta against personnel and/or labour and/or officials, but the most important single thing we have got to do is to see that the 165,000 odd people that work for us actually deliver eight hours of constructive, productive, hard work every day.  It is my observation - this is not a thumb suck, that in very wide parts of our administration still we are very, very far from achieving, Mr Speaker, productivity amongst those people.

I will pursue further, in the new year, this campaign, which I hope every one of you will join with me because I know the Premier and the Cabinet are already committed to it.  I want to say that we will be able to produce figures, for example, next year, where in a certain department 3,800 people can actually have their job done by 800 better trained, better qualified people with a nett personnel cost saving of significant amounts.

We have really got to ask ourselves - and we have just had placed before the Cabinet a Cabinet memorandum which has been accepted and is being implemented at the present time, which says that departments must stop doing functions which are not core to the central existence of that department.  We are not in the grass-cutting business, in the catering business, in the cleaning business and in a whole host of other small peripheral businesses.  We are not in the business of hiring, for example -and I do not specifically pick out a department, but it is a very relevant example - we are not in the business of hiring painters when we cannot afford to buy paint with which they would paint.  We are not, as Agriculture have admitted and have dealt with, in the business of hiring dipping inspectors.  So, these kind of examples can be found across our administration and we are going to have to deal with them because the obtaining of value for money is the next critical step in our climb to better heights in regard to providing services to our people.

Mr Tarr, in supporting the sentiments expressed by the hon Mrs Cronje, drew attention for example to the extent to which we are getting qualified audits and where in fact, in the departments at one stage, there were more qualified audits than there were unqualified audits.  I want to deal now, in responding to Mr Tarr, also with a response to all those other members who raised this issue.

Mr Speaker, should the Public Finance Management Act in fact be implemented, as we believe it will and hope it will, on 1 April 2000, there will be a paradigm shift of such huge proportions in our financial administration that it is going to come as such a shock in certain quarters that I know for certain that not everyone at accounting officer level, or at other levels for that matter, are going to survive that shock.  It has been brought in with the full support of this administration and as this administration's representative in the Budget Council nationally which administers a budget which runs into an excess of R220 billion in this country as a whole, nationally and provincially, we have identified that when you are managing such mammoth amounts of money, you have indeed a responsibility to do it properly.

I am very pleased that so many members have attached importance to the whole question of internal audit and I would like to inform the House here today that in fact our Internal Audit Unit is already operational.  It is not yet at full strength, it is not yet fully staffed in the sense that there are still key posts which are being advertised and for which interviews are presently being conducted, but we already have the Audit Committee, in which the majority of members are experts from the private sector.  That Audit Committee has already passed some 30 resolutions since it came into effect earlier this year.  Skilled forensic audit work is taking place at this very moment as a result of work done by the Internal Audit Unit.  I want to give the assurance to the members of the House that their encouragement in this regard is very much appreciated.  From our point of view in the Department, internal audit and the successful implementation of it in every respect is our number one priority in the coming financial year.

Simultaneous with the discussion on the internal audit, of course, came the questions how do we deal with errant departments?  The hon member Mr Lowe, in fact rightly raised the fact, have we in fact bailed out errant departments in terms of those few additional appropriations given in this Adjustment Estimate, and posed the question, should we in fact have done this?  I want to give him the assurance that the amount required for appropriation in this Adjustment Estimate, at no stage can it be considered a bail out.

We sometimes have to make tough choices and when we see that the existing budget is going to clearly not be able to meet a statutory obligation, such as the paying of welfare grants, social pensions, then we do have to make little adjustments.  One must always remember that any budget is in fact an estimate of the expenditure for 12 months and that if one can estimate accurately to within less than one percentage point, quite frankly, you are a genius.  So, every year, really, we will have adjustment estimates which merely correct small deficiencies in the original estimates because to have a budget, which is but a sophisticated estimate, absolutely coincide with your expenditure, I do not think has ever been heard of in any institution.

It is in this regard that I echo the views of those members who say that when the Public Finance Management Act comes into operation, errant departments will no longer have a place to hide.  We, as a Department, intend to take steps in the period between now and 31 March to identify internally, errant departments and to try and help them put procedures in place which will result in them being able to survive the strictures of the Public Finance Management Act when it comes into being.  Because as somebody said, in fact, it was the hon Mr Mohlomi, that heads have got to roll, not only amongst officials, but he added that heads must roll amongst members of the Executive as well, if it is proven that this kind of thing is not being adequately managed.  I just want to assure everybody that the Public Finance Management Act is going to be as much a discipline for executing authorities, which is the new collective name for political heads of departments, as it is going to be for administrative heads of departments.

Calls have been made by many members also for the total obliteration of corruption and it is described as a blot on the landscape, on our financial landscape.  I want to say that not only my Department, but in fact the entire Executive, concurs with this view.  There was a time when I made a public statement, Mr Speaker, that tragically we had many public servants who did not think that fraud and/or corruption was a crime, they thought it was a fringe benefit.  [LAUGHTER]  We have still got such people in our administrations, but I want to believe that we have a great deal fewer such people in our administration than we did previously, and that the trend is growing in the right direction.

The hon Mr Mbatha raised specifically unfunded mandates and I want to say that indeed there is a determination not to accept unfunded mandates and the provinces are getting very tough generally in this regard.  I do not believe that the unfunded mandate highlighted, in terms of the Welfare vote in this Adjustment Estimate, will be easily repeated because we do have a sympathetic ear at the level from which this unfunded mandate came.

THE SPEAKER:  Order, please!  I would like to remind members again that they must read Rules 53 and 54.  Thank you.

MR P M MILLER: (Minister of Finance):  The hon member Mrs Johnson also indicated the need for departments to meet predetermined performance indicators.  I just want to say that all that is very much part of our attempt, through internal audit, to get value for money spending.  Indeed we will be pursuing that too in the coming year.

In an indirect way, the hon Mr Rajbansi was also supporting this in that he said that while we might legitimately complain about our equitable share, it is also of crucial importance that in doing so we can prove that that which we did receive has been wisely spent.  That too, of course, ties up with the whole theme of getting value for money and of getting performance from our people.

MR A RAJBANSI:  INTERJECTION.  [LAUGHTER]

MR P M MILLER: (Minister of Finance):  Under-utilised assets is something dear to the heart of our administration.  There have been fears expressed that an administration should not sell its family silver in order to generate money for consumptive purposes.  I agree, but what I do say is that if we can sell under-utilised, unnecessary pieces of silver and retain that money specifically for re-investment in new capital assets, so keeping our capital asset base up, but at least getting rid of the so-called dead wood in our capital asset base and replacing it with capital assets which are actually useful to the administration, under those circumstances I think we have a great potential to rid ourselves of under-utilised and unnecessary capital assets and to replace them with appropriate capital assets.

Much has been said by a host of members on the whole question of Public Accounts.  I want to indicate that I have great respect for the work done by the institution of a Public Accounts Committee in any political governmental organisation.  But there is one problem with it which is not the institution's fault and that is that Public Accounts is always a reactive process.  It is reacting to something which has already happened.  It is trying to close, in many cases, the stable door after the horse has bolted.  So we need, together with my Portfolio Committee on Finance, to actually start utilising both that Portfolio Committee and the Standing Committee on Public Accounts in a more pro-active way.  Getting them linked up with internal audit.

I can tell exactly now what is going to be the news when the Standing Committee on Public Accounts looks at the 1997/98 financial year.  That was the year of financial crisis.  They are going to be asking all the same questions all over again.  Why did you overspend, why did this happen and so on.  The fact is, is that phase is behind us, it is gone, we have spent 18 months putting those things right.  But interestingly enough, the questions are still going to be asked about that year, although we have already passed that phase by in a sense.

I therefore plead with both those committees and their Chairmen, to ponder on how we can put processes and procedures in place to actually together, as a team which has specific financial responsibilities, to work to ensure that one day the meetings of Public Accounts are simply routine meetings to approve unqualified audit reports and in that way, because we have taken pro-active, pre-emptive steps, to see that the issues which give rise to qualified audit reports are no longer part of our everyday activity in this Province.

I just want to express particularly to my friend uZwide ayi ndiyabonga undenze inkunzi Baba.  Nami bendisho bendisenethemba lokuthi andikakaphelelwa amandla ndiseyiyona inkunzi kakade.  [UHLEKO]  [Thank you, you have made me a man.  I also believe and hope that I am still powerful and dynamic]. [LAUGHTER]  The hon Mr Nel dealt with a variety of questions that I believe this Legislature should ask itself from time to time.  It is of concern to us too in Finance, and I know to the line Minister concerned, that we have not totally reconstituted the Peace Committee things into community police forums, but I know that activity is on the go right at the present time.

Several of the members have commented on, and raised issues associated with the gambling conundrum that we find ourselves in at the present time.  As you all know, that particular issue is the responsibility of our Premier and as such given what is going on at the present time, I consider it sub judice in a sense, although it is not a judicial process.  The only comment I wish to add, and it is a comment that I know is shared by the Premier and shared by the entire Cabinet, is that it is indeed to all of us a matter of regret that the development that will arise out of a successful gambling industry and the income that will come to the Province, has not materialised yet at this stage and I would hope that everyone will redouble their efforts to see that we bring this matter to fruition.

The hon Mr Mackenzie spoke about allocations, and I think justifiably so, when he pleaded for what he called delivery Ministries to perhaps in the future get a more generous allocation.  We need to go back a little bit in history and to remember that there was a time when in fact the smaller departments were actually getting squeezed right out entirely by the three giant Social Service Departments.

So that is why we have a basic rule which says that our budget will be split on the basis of 85% to the three major Social Service Departments and 15% to the balance.  That, when we achieve it, is to the benefit of those that are sharing the 15%.  What we have also got to do of course is redirect funds when we do this value for money exercise, away from where we are getting no value at all, into areas such as you mentioned, the hon member, where we can in fact get value and contribute to the economic growth and upliftment of our Province.

I just want to mention right now that in our new Minister, at a personal level, he has a wonderful ability to infect other people also with enthusiasm, and our new Minister in that particular portfolio, is not lacking in enthusiasm and I enjoy that particular feature of his approach.

Finally, the hon Mr Mohlomi - and I have mentioned some of the issues already which he dealt with - but he emphasized the whole issue of that heads must roll.  I actually believe, when I read the other day - and it is a fact - that we have a person serving a three year gaol sentence, right as I stand before you now, and that person serving that three year gaol sentence, still receives a monthly cheque from this administration every month.  The fact that that can happen is a blot on the copy book of every person in this hon Chamber.  I would venture to suggest that it is probably not the only one, it is the only one we know about.  The whole question that people can be suspended on full pay has got to be taken into review.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

MR P M MILLER: (Minister of Finance):  With regard to a former responsibility that I had in Local Government and Housing, I want to say that we instituted a rule that every person who was suspended, was suspended without pay.  We made provision for the fact that if we were then taken on review and forced to pay them, we had the resources and on not one single occasion was that decision to suspend people where they were under investigation, or in a court case on criminal situations, not on one occasion was suspension without pay successfully challenged.  So I really think that if we are serious, we cannot have a situation where people can be suspended on full pay.  Effectively, you are put on holiday.  It should be something which is punitive in nature, not one that gives you long leave, which is what it is inclined to do at the present time.

I conclude, Mr Speaker, by warmly thanking all the participants in this debate once again.

I now come to the final business of my address by indicating to you and to all hon members that since the delivery of the speech yesterday and the Appropriation Act, the Adjustment Estimate Act, with its attached schedules containing specific figures, we have been in touch, as a Department, with National Finance.  I had a conversation this morning telephonically with Minister Trevor Manuel.  The information I wish to share with you is that certain small adjustments to the actual figures in the schedule might have to be made.  I therefore request, Mr Speaker, that we do not, as a House, today vote on this measure and take it into law, but that you effectively adjourn this debate and that it be the first item at our first sitting in the new year where we will then either be able to confirm that every figure in the schedule is correct, or move minor amendments and then the House will be able to vote in acceptance of the Bill.  I do so move.  Thank you, Mr Speaker.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  The last issue that we adjourn the passing of the Bill, I do not think any member will oppose  and we will put it on the agenda for the next sitting of the House.  Thank you.

We then continue with item 8.3.

8.3	DEBATE ON THE REPORT OF THE MINISTER OF LOCAL GOVERNMENT IN TERMS OF RULE 9(3)

THE SPEAKER:  On the list of speakers, I will now call upon the hon member Mr E S Mchunu to start the debate.  He has got seven minutes.

MR E S MCHUNU:  Mr Speaker, thank you for this opportunity.  Firstly, I would like to congratulate the Minister of Local Government for being able to fulfil his responsibility towards this House and produce a report and actually present it here.  I noted that the report of the Minister covered a wide range of issues, but I just want to focus on a few, particularly on the demarcation process.

In regard to the demarcation process I would want firstly to say that we appreciate the fact that the Minister did mention here that his Department is involved in the process of demarcation and explained the crucial role as the process unfolds.  I am saying this because it is reassuring that all government components are involved in the demarcation process so that it becomes the result of everybody around.  At the end of the process all of us should be able to take the responsibility of the process in which we would all have been involved.

Secondly, I want to believe that the demarcation process is aiming at resulting into a new structure altogether, a totally new local government structure.  If that is the case, it is important that we go to the objectives of the new local government.  What are the objectives of local government in terms of what we are looking forward to.

1.	The Constitution says the object of local government is to provide democratic accountable government for local communities.  That is the first objective.

2.	The second objective is to ensure the provision of services to communities in a sustainable manner.

3.	To promote social and economic development.

4.	To promote a safe and healthy environment.

5.	To encourage the involvement of communities and community organisations in the matters of local government.

It is important that as the process unfolds and as it winds down at the end of the oncoming year, we are able to ensure that all these objectives are carried forward and that they will be the result as we all want them to be.

I am saying this because it does appear that there are a number of perceptions - and I am using that word, perceptions, because to a large extent, whatever complaints that we have, and justifiably so, and whatever objections and whatever views that we may have, and justifiably so, but they should not aim and should not lose sight of these objectives, and they should all be aiming at having a local government that will fulfil, or that will be in line with these said objectives in terms of the Constitution.

The process itself, the process of demarcation, if we are aiming at local government, that is democratic and accountable, the process itself should be accountable, and it should be democratic.  To this end I want to congratulate the Board for having been able to hold a number of meetings where the demarcation process of all categories has been discussed.  Meetings have been held with Ministers in the Province, between the Ministers and the Board, the House of Traditional Leaders, National Assembly, communities, at all levels.  Our duty is to encourage ourselves and our communities to attend these hearings, to attend these meetings, so that we are able to air our views rather than to simply say that there is a problem with the demarcation, there is going to be a fight about demarcation, and not concentrate on building while the process allows us to do so.  That is why I am commending the Board for opening up during the process, for engaging communities, for ensuring that while the objective is democracy and accountability, the process itself must also be so.

The second issue that I want to highlight is that when you look at the regional councils, at the birth of regional councils there were quite a number of concerns and people were saying that these new structures are not going to deliver, they are not going to work, but all of us present can be witnesses to the fact that although regional councils have not lived up to expectations necessarily in all aspects, but we have begun to experience some of the results which are quite positive in terms of the impact of delivery to communities at local level.

THE SPEAKER:  The hon member is left with a minute.

MR E S MCHUNU:  When you switch on your radio it does happen now that you will listen to the radio for the whole hour, just listening what a particular regional council has been able to deliver, or what it is in the process of delivering, something that we have never heard about before 1994.  This is a very important achievement on the part of regional councils.

But it does not mean to say that all is well and all is good.  There is still a lot to be done in order to improve local government structures and their capacity to deliver and we appreciate the efforts that the Department is making and all of us should assist in that process.  Thank you.

THE SPEAKER:  The hon member's time is up.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

THE SPEAKER:  I will now call upon the hon member Mr J M Ngcobo, who has got five minutes.

MR J M A NGCOBO:  Mr Speaker, I first of all wish to congratulate the Minister for having touched on various topics affecting local government during his speech yesterday.  Amongst other things he mentioned, was the fact that his Department was responsible for assisting with the transformation process of local government.  The question then arises as to what are the impediments that bedevil this transformation process, which, during this transition period, has seen so many local authorities getting into financial and administrative problems.

Mr Speaker, I am speaking now as both the practitioner of local government procedures from the period of the Joint Services Boards to the period of regional councils, as well as a student of development administration.  The problems in local government arise from the fact that there is no smooth running of the affairs of these local councils.

There is internal swashbuckling and belligerence between elected councillors and officials.  The officials regard the councillors as ignorant and ignoramuses  [LAUGHTER]  in certain aspects of local government and they regard them as potentially corrupt, whereas the councillors regard the officials as domineering and intending to treat them paternalistically, like the picannins similar to the Lilliputians in Gulliver's Travels.  [LAUGHTER]  The councillors think that officials want to camouflage their own shortcomings by criticising them.

This Legislature, Mr Speaker, must now decide which is the ideal form of local government they would like to see in this Province.  I wish at this stage to narrate a story to depict what I am trying to say.  The story of a king who wanted all the bakers in his land to bake him the ideal cake.  The first cake was too salty, the second one was too fatty, the third one was too sweet, the fourth one was too hard.

When an ideal cake could not be found, the bakers came together and identified the one who would put sugar in correct quantities, salt in correct quantities, flour porous enough not to be hard, oil in correct quantities and ultimately, they baked an ideal cake for the king.  It is therefore important that we devise methods which we think will be an ideal form of local government.

THE SPEAKER:  The hon member is left with a minute.

MR J M A NGCOBO:  I think this Legislature must through its Local Government Portfolio Committee identify a few contiguous local authorities and target them for the necessary capacity building.  You cannot expect people who have not been taken through the rigours of financial procedures and tendering procurement procedures, to run the local authorities efficiently.  With the new local authorities according to demarcation becoming bigger in some cases than before and with new rural councils in our Province which never existed before, unless this is systematically done we are likely to witness disastrous consequences.  We must admit that colonialism inculcated into our people the insidious fruits of self-doubt and they should be helped to extricate themselves and form positive images of their capabilities and of themselves.

The councils are flooded and inundated with hundreds and hundreds of Green Papers, White Papers, Bills and Acts on a regular basis within a very short period of time.

THE SPEAKER:  The hon member's time is up.

MR J M A NGCOBO:  Before they can master the first Bill, they are already confronted with another plethora and myriads of other Bills and Acts.  Thank you, Mr Speaker.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!  INTERJECTIONS.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  I will now call upon hon member Mr Lowe.  Order, please!  Order!  Order!  Hon Mr Lowe, who has got six minutes.

MR C M LOWE:  Mr Speaker, thank you very much indeed.  Could the Democratic Party add its voice of congratulations to the hon Minister for his speech yesterday afternoon.  We noted with interest, Mr Speaker, that the Minister referred to the establishment of new municipalities in accordance with Section 12 of the Municipal Structures Act.

Interestingly, Mr Speaker, in recent months, the Premier and the hon Minister have both expressed public concern at various aspects of the demarcation process, most notably the lack of wide and consultative discussions with all role-players.  Even in this House today, an hon member of the IFP gave notice of his intention to move a motion, expressing concern at this process.

The Democratic Party adds its voice of concern, Mr Speaker.  We have repeatedly stated our opposition, both to the nature of the demarcation process and to the likely effect of the proposals.

We remain opposed, Mr Speaker, to the total, or almost total lack of consultation with all role-players, including traditional authorities.

We remain opposed to the manner in which the demarcation hearings themselves have been held, poor, if any communications and difficult venues for people to get to, or to find.

We remain opposed to the continued failure to realise that rural needs and service delivery are vastly different from those of urban areas and these areas cannot simply be combined to create a single administrative entity.

We remain opposed, Mr Speaker, to the continued fiction that suggests an unlimited barrel of money that will deliver endless services to those in need, wherever they may reside, at what cost and funded by only who knows.

We remain opposed to the absence of clear municipal financial legislation to complement the objectives of the Municipal Structures Act, the Municipal Systems Bill and the Demarcation Act.  Clearly a case of a cart before the horse.  Let us get the finances right before we start dealing with issues of boundaries and delivery.

The reality is very, very different, and if the Demarcation Board is truly serious about addressing the very real municipal needs of millions of people in KwaZulu-Natal, especially in rural areas, then they are going to have to radically alter their stance in accordance with that economic reality.

Rural areas, let me make it very clear, Mr Speaker, rural areas critically need to receive services for their disadvantaged communities.  Let there be no doubt about where the Democratic Party stands on this issue.  Those typically very poor people with little, or no financial resources to pay for them, are entitled to services.  But simply combining vast stretches of rural area in need with towns and cities more able to provide services within their own small paradigms is not the answer to local government woes in this Province.  On the contrary, Mr Speaker, it is a recipe for disaster.  More so, Mr Speaker, when there has been virtually no consultation, when vast areas of our Province have been ...

THE SPEAKER:  Again, I would like to remind members of Rule 53 and 54, please.  Continue, hon member.

MR C M LOWE:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  It has been said that local government should be democratic, it should be accountable.  We can only say amen to those thoughts, but the fact is, Mr Speaker, when you look at the legislation, both before us and what is proposed and the demarcation process that is to follow, it is not democratic, it is not accountable and it is certainly not transparent.

What then do we propose, Mr Speaker?  Well, the Democratic Party firstly, is in complete agreement with the stated objectives of local government as outlined in the Constitution.  We agree absolutely and we uphold those views, but we disagree, and in many instances fundamentally, with the legislation proposed and otherwise designed to bring about those very noble objectives.

This is not a question of pitting the have's against the have-not's, as some cynics like to claim.  We reject that notion with contempt.  All South Africans, especially the disadvantaged and rural poor as I have said, deserve decent access to acceptable standards of living, and of basic municipal services at affordable cost.  Boundaries are largely irrelevant, it is service delivery that counts and the Board has yet to practically demonstrate how their demarcation plan will actually and effectively deliver the much needed service to those on the ground who so desperately need it.

We believe, Mr Speaker, and quite frankly, experience has shown, that a relatively larger number of smaller district councils are more efficient and effective than a smaller number of larger authorities.  Government closer to the electorate, produces efficiencies as well as more open, flexible and accountable authority.

THE SPEAKER:  The hon member is left with a minute.

MR C M LOWE:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  These types of arrangements collect revenues efficiently, ensure cross-subsidisation appropriately and deliver services effectively.

A case in point is the Dolphin Coast, brought to the pedestal as it rightly should be, by our President of South Africa, Mr Thabo Mbeki.  There is a case in point of out-sourcing, of privatisation, of doing the right thing in a local authority and it is good to see that our President is acknowledging that.  We need to be doing more of that in this Province.

Centralisation is not the solution, Mr Speaker.  Practical experience and economic reality demonstrates that there is a better way to do things.  We are supportive of the Minister, Mr Speaker, of what he has had to say in his speeches, both in the House and outside of the House.  We will continue to support all views that want to bring real change and a real difference to people in this Province and not just rhetoric, that pretends to deliver something but in reality will deliver nothing at all.  Thank you very much.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  I will now call upon the hon member Mr Volker, who has got five minutes.

MR V A VOLKER:  I thank you, Mr Speaker.  Mr Speaker, local government is about to move into a process of a total change from the whole principle and the concept of local government.  The demarcation proposals that have been put forward, I believe, are far-fetched and totally impractical.  On the one hand they provide for a regional demarcation.  The Province of KwaZulu-Natal is being demarcated into 10 regions and one cross-border region.  But then, the rest of the Province, rural and tribal and urban are being demarcated into municipal local government, Category B local government.

That, I believe, is totally impractical because local government is being financed by rates, based on market-related value of property so as to service those properties in an urban concentration.  To include rural based land, be it tribal, or be it agricultural, for economic farming, is totally impractical. If those areas are to be included, then they rightfully can demand the same level of service, whether they are urban or rural, as are being provided at the highest level, and that is totally unaffordable.  I believe that it is essential that there be a co-ordination of protest against this type of demarcation.

It has been brought to my attention that even in ANC-controlled local authorities in the Northern Province there is objection to this type of demarcation.  

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS.

MR V A VOLKER:  This has to be followed up.  It is basically the destruction of local government stability.  It is not a question of having financial resources from the farming areas to the local government, it is a question of destroying the whole concept of local government.

Therefore, we believe that whereas development is absolutely essential for the under-developed areas, the financial responsibility of providing funding for those areas is not a local government responsibility, but the responsibility of the national fiscus.  Funding development is essential, but not based on land value-based rates.  It is from the national fiscus that that type of development expenditure has to be financed.  Therefore we believe that the Demarcation Board, under the chairmanship of Dr Sutcliffe, has gone totally overboard in introducing a new concept that is unknown and that is not practical into this country.  We seriously object to that concept being introduced.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  Thank you for saving time, hon member Mr Volker.  I will now call upon the hon member Mr T M Shabalala, who has got five minutes.

MR T M SHABALALA:  Ndabezitha ngithokoza kakhulu onyakeni nabaHlonishwa bonke abakhulumile sesifika ekuphethweni kwalonyaka.  Ebunzimeni bonke esibe nabo okuhle nokubi, sifunda siyaphambili ngane zakwethu.  Ngithi uNkulunkulu abe nathi size siphinde sibonane onyakeni ozayo.

Siyalazi usizi olubhekene nabaholi bebulawa ngapha nangapha, nabantu bebulawa ngapha nangapha sithi engathi singaphuma la siyoshumayela ukuthula, sibhekane nokudala ukuthula ezindaweni zethu.  UNkulunkulu asibusise sonke, Amen.

TRANSLATION:  Ndabezitha as we come to the end of the year I would like to thank all the hon members for the valuable speeches they have made.  We have had to overcome many problems but we are progressing.  I pray that God will be with us until we meet again.

We know about the bad conditions and the problems that our leaders face with the killings.  The people are been killed.  When we leave here me must go to our communities and preach the gospel of peace.  God bless us all.  Amen.  T/E

I would like to congratulate the hon Minister on this speech, he made yesterday.  A wide range of issues were mentioned in this speech.  This report confirms that he is in charge of his Department.  Well done, Ndabezitha.

One of the topics the Minister touched on was about the financial instability of the municipalities.  Most of the local councils are in financial trouble due to diverse problems.  South Africa has a weak civic culture and the tradition of democratic local government is equally weak.  The electorate, in most cases, have less contact with their councillors.

Community consciousness and community cohesion is very important in determining the levels of payment of rates and service charges.  In some communities there is a weaker sense about the concept of community accountability and thus the level of non-payment is high.

The influx of large numbers of unemployed to the urban areas is bound to mean that many people will be non-payers.  The HIV/AIDS crisis also means that more and more people who know they are infected are unlikely to make the payment of rates/services a priority.

There is a culture of entitlement and the perception that services are simply a human right.  The electricity cut-offs and water reductions will have no effect on forcing people to pay.  Illegal re-connections are happening on a massive scale.  The confidence of the community is very low when it comes to the reading of meters and the actual correctness of the account to be paid.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you, hon member.  Siyazibongela.  I will now call upon the hon member Mr Rajbansi, who has got four minutes.  

MR A RAJBANSI:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  The Minority Front is very appreciative of the wonderful speech delivered by the hon Minister yesterday and also to our Chairperson of the Local Government Portfolio Committee for the contribution he and our portfolio committee is making.

We had a very excellent workshop recently in Pietermaritzburg and I thought that although it was a local government workshop, it should be something that should have been attended by other hon members of this House.  Present at this workshop was not only the representative of the Department of Local Government, but also a representative from the National Assembly, the Chairperson of the national portfolio committee.  At this workshop we discussed the question of oversight.  Oversight is linked to the question of municipalities struggling, where there are genuine viabilities, even if you had the best brains in the world, they would not be able to make it because they do not have the money.

On the other hand, you also have municipalities that are not viable, like Colenso and like Dannhauser.  The hon Minister made reference to Dannhauser yesterday and I am very glad that he is going to soon publish the report of the Commission of Enquiry.

Even the former National Minister of Local Government made reference to the fact that we have too many splintered local authorities in our country.  One important development which demarcation must achieve is to rationalise local authorities, get rid of small local authorities that are adjacent to each other.

Mr Speaker, many comments have been made about demarcation.  I once said that Dr Mangosuthu Buthelezi was dealing with demarcation and he used the words: "White avarice has gone mad".  There are certain people who want to preserve what they have, like those people who forced us to divide the city of Durban into two parts.  We protected it by ensuring that there must be one administration.  We cannot afford a set of town planners, a set of executive officers, just adjacent to each other.  This country cannot afford it.

At the same time we want to improve the efficiency of councillors and we have excellent national legislation dealing with the restructuring of local government, dealing with the role of the community in local government in development forums, etcetera.  All that we have to do is set aside ideological differences.  

THE SPEAKER:  The hon member is left with 30 seconds.

MR A RAJBANSI:  I was very appreciative of the fact that even the National Minister indicated the participation of traditionalism so that there can be a partnership between what modern local government is and what traditional authorities are.  I may mention that when Dr Buthelezi was present, when the message of the President of India was being delivered, he referred to a term called "sri raj", which means traditional local government in a modern society.  I think if I have to give a prize for 1999 for the most improved Chairperson, I will give it to the Chairperson of the Local Government Committee ...

THE SPEAKER:  The hon member's time is up.

MR A RAJBANSI:  ... and also across the road to our Deputy Chairperson of Committees.  Thank you.

THE SPEAKER:  I will now call upon the hon member Mrs Downs, who has got four minutes.

MRS J M DOWNS:  Mr Speaker, I am going to dispense with demarcation with one sentence, basically our position is somewhat between the two extremes.  It makes sense to combine some municipalities, others, it is going to put too much of a burden on a small amount of finance.  We need to think about other ways to generate the funds we need to give the services to those people who cannot afford them.  With those two brief sentences, I am not going to dwell too much on demarcation.

What I do want to talk about is the report that the Minister made about Colenso.  There was a resolution of this House in which we requested him to report back on the ongoing situation in Colenso and I just want to couple that with another couple of municipalities, Umkomaas being one, and Eshowe being one.  I really have a great concern, and I would like to urge the Minister, we, as the Local Government Committee, have met with the councillors of Colenso and there seems to be more willingness for them to get together with the Umsekeli Management System and to put things in place.  One of the things that is really creating a problem are the two vacancies, which is making it difficult for the council to be quorate and they cannot take the decisions which Umsekeli requires if they are not quorate.  I would urge the Minister to focus particularly on that as an urgency.

Then once everything is in place, and if the council still remains inquorate and it is not doing its job, I would urge the Minister to really put Section 139 in place.  We really cannot continue, and continue, and continue with a process that has actually got to a stage where it is going to be very difficult, I believe, for the Department to contain it.

When you look at what gave rise to the problems in Colenso, it was probably one of inviability, to begin with, lack of training on councillors' part and a very bad CEO.  This is where I really want to highlight.  Councillors are in a sense in charge of their CEO and they are supposed to oversee how the administration of the council runs through the CEO, but if they have no capacity, it is very difficult for them to hold them to account.  It gives rise to situations.  The same CEO that was in Colenso has now moved to Umkomaas and is creating equal amounts of havoc in Umkomaas through lack of, I do not know what to call it.  Certainly it is a great difficulty.  So I am glad that the Minister has instituted an enquiry there.

If you look at a municipality like Eshowe, you also had a situation where a treasurer and his wife were co-signatories on cheques.

THE SPEAKER:  The hon member is left with a minute.

MRS J M DOWNS:  This cannot be so.  So, I have a serious question as to how the Province and the Department can actually look into, number one, capacitating councillors to oversee their administrations, and number two, where they cannot, to have a look at the Department and how we can put in place provincial legislation, which requires not only councillors to perform, but CEO's and the administrative staff as well.  I believe that there are just plain bad apples who are CEO's and who are people in the administration and treasury and we need to really find a way to root these people out and throw them out before we have a collapse of local councils.

With those few words I would like to thank the Minister and his Department for the work that they are doing pro-actively.  Many of the other provinces - and I have got to say this - have not even attempted to work with their local councils but this Department certainly has and I would like to congratulate them for that.

THE SPEAKER:  The hon member's time is up.  Thank you.  I will now call upon hon member Mr Nxumalo for four minutes.

MR S N NXUMALO:  Baba Somlomo, ngithi angisukume nokubonga ngibongele uMhlonishwa uNgqongqoshe womnyango ngombiko wakhe omuhle obekwe ngobunyonicwa nangesisoka.

Nakuba umbiko umuhle ngithi akengiphawule lapha nalaphaya nami ngizoke ngithande ukusika elijikayo lapha e-Colenso.  Angibonge umsebenzi osuwenziwe lapha e-Colenso.  Yaxoxwa kakhulu lendaba kwi-sitting edlule kwathunyelwa uMsekeli, iriphothi yinhle ukuthi uMsekeli yini aseyenzile lapha.

Kodwa umbuzo enginawo ukuthi uMsekeli lo uzohlala isikhathi esingakanani laphaya e-Colenso.  Nanokuthi kuyoba nini la lapho iKhansela noma i-TLC yase-Colenso iyokwazi khona ukuzimela izenzele umsebenzi wayo ngaphandle koMsekeli.

Okunye ebengithi angikuthi qaba qaba ilokhu kwe-transfer of staff, lapho kudluliselwa khona i-staff.  Kuyangimangaza kanti futhi kuyangidumaza ukuthi kanti nangalesikhathi ayikakaqedwa le-process yokudluliswa kwe-staff, ngoba sekunezinkingake manje.  Ngike ngathi ukuthi hulukuqu kwelaseShowe ngake ngaba iKhansela kuleladolobha ngathola ukuthi namanje i-staff asikakadluliswa sidluliswa kulomkhandlu.  Lokho sekwenza ukuthi kube lukhuni ukusebenza.

Uma uxoxa ne-staff salapha sithi ngokwezinombolo ezibhalwe phansi baningi abantu abaqashiwe, bayahola futhi, kodwa uma sekuyosetshenzwa uthi ubala amakhanda awaveli wonke lamakhanda.  Kanti le-TLC ayikwazi ukuthi iyilandele kahle lento ngoba labantu baqashwe i-Province.  Ebesithi-ke namhlanje umnyango awuke uyibhekisise lendaba yokudluliselwa kwe-staff.

Mhlawumbe okunye okungikhathazayo ilento ye-Y2K, le-Y2K kukhona abantu asebechithe izimali zabo ngokungenasidingo.  Ngike ngathola ukuthi kwezinye izindawo sekuthengwe ama-generator amakhulu namathangi abantu bazitshela ukuthi la emkhandlwini uma kushaya u-31 December kuyovele kunqamuke yonke into.

Mhlawumbe akesithi umnyango akuwenze umkhankaso ke kumenyezelwe ukuthi cha ayikho lento abantu abazonge lezimali zabo ziyadingeka abazisebenzise kokunye.  Ngoba uthola ukuthi abanye abenza lokhu iwo ama-department kaHulumeni kuphela.

THE SPEAKER:  Ilungu selisalelwe umzuzu.  [The hon member has one minute left].

MR S N NXUMALO:  Mhlawumbe kulomzuzu owodwa osusele ngithi angiwubonge umbiko wonke ngiwuncome ngithi qhubeka nokwenza umsebenzi wakho ngokuzimisela Ngqongqoshe.  Bese sithi ungene ngestebhu kulonyaka ozayo, kule-millennium ukuthi ushayine isisoka.

TRANSLATION:  Mr Speaker, I would like to thank the hon Minister for his eloquent speech.

I want to say something about Colenso although the message is quite clear.  Thank you for the work that has been done at Colenso.  The issue was thoroughly discussed during the last sitting.  We received a report from Msekeli and it was clear what their position was.

I am concerned about how long Msekeli is going to be in Colenso. When will the Council and the TLC be able to function independently without the help of Umsekeli.

Another issue which I wanted to touch on was the problem of the transferring of staff.  It astounds me that this process has as yet not been completed.  There are now overwhelming problems as a result of this.  Once when I was a town councillor at Eshowe  I found that the staff had not yet been transferred.  This has caused many problems. 

Talks with the staff revealed that there appeared to be ghost workers who were being paid.  The TLC does not have the power to intervene and solve the problem, because this competency is managed by the Province.  We request the Department to pay attention to this process of staff transfers.

Another matter that I am concerned about is this issue of the Y2K.  Some people have unnecessarily spent money with regards to this issue.  It as been brought to my attention that people have
bought generators and big water tanks.  They believe there are going to be no services after 31 December 1999.

The Department should make it their business to make an announcement in this regard and ensure the people that nothing like that is going to happen.  They must save their money.  It would appear that some of the government departments are involved in intimidating the people.

With this last minute I would like to thank and congratulate the Minister for the good work he is doing and encourage him to continue with it.  I wish you every thing of the best in the new millennium.  T/E

THE SPEAKER:  Siyabonga kakhulu.  I will now call upon hon member Mr Lowe, who has got two minutes.

MR C M LOWE:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  As I have already indicated, local government is about delivery of municipal services and South Africa, KwaZulu-Natal, desperately needs better local government, it needs to work.  That is precisely why we have offered alternative real world solutions and consistently pointed out that the draft legislation is profoundly undemocratic and unconstitutional.  It is only headed for the law courts at this stage.

Delivery is the key in KwaZulu-Natal.  Delivery to rural poor people, disadvantaged and marginalised people and nobody, Mr Speaker, not even, with respect, the ANC, holds the moral high ground on addressing the poverty and the need and the deprivation of those people in this Province.  It is something to which we are all committed and something I believe that every person in this House today commits themselves to doing something about.  So accusations of holding onto privilege are indeed unfounded.

The key, Mr Speaker, is how do we practically fund rural areas to ensure that they get the services that they so desperately need?  Where is the money going to come from, how will service delivery be affected.  Mr Speaker, we do not believe it is going to be done by simply combining rural areas onto the back of urban areas and saying that is how you are going to deliver services.

What we need is an equitable share of national funding, take more for rural and less to the urban areas.

THE SPEAKER:  The hon member is left with 30 seconds.

MR C M LOWE:  That is the key, not fiddling around with boundaries and talking about some kind of magic plan for demarcating areas.  We need to re-prioritise our funding, Mr Speaker, from within urban areas as well.  Yes, of course, there has got to be some degree of cross-subsidisation.  The use of RSC levies and the like is needed.  But with the greatest will in the world, that is going to get no-where near enough of the resources that are going to be needed to bring those very people that need those services, the services they need, and with respect, to pretend otherwise is just fooling ourselves.

THE SPEAKER:  The hon member's time is up.

MR C M LOWE:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  On that note I would like to conclude and thank everybody.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  Njengamanje sengithula Inkosi uGumede ezothatha imizuzu ewu-eight.  [The next to speak will be Inkosi Gumede who has eight minutes].

INKOSI S H GUMEDE: (Whip):  NOT ON RECORD.

THE SPEAKER:  Mhlawumbe Inkosi ngizoyihlupha bathi akuzwakali bayakhala laba abaqophayo ingeke isebenzise enye indawo.  [Maybe I am going to interrupt the Inkosi.  The people who are recording the proceedings are complaining about the sound.  You are not coming through clearly.  Can you please use another microphone]. 

INKOSI S H GUMEDE: (Whip):  All right.  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  The Minister needs to be applauded and congratulated for his informative and well thought through report.  Among other things mentioned in the report is the pilot project called Mbazwana Rural Service Centre, which will co-ordinate services undertaken by various departments.

One would like to commend this Department for such a unique approach to traditional communities.  We have, in the past, witnessed with dismay all government resources being channelled to already developed urban areas of our country, thus neglecting rural areas where the poorest of the poor and unemployed people live.

This move will no doubt assist rural people who travel long distances for their support service facilities.  This is what indeed we call a positive approach to practical politics.

Mr Speaker, the report in fact said something about the process of demarcation.  We say, Mr Speaker, that the report should not in fact force traditional authorities to fall within the purview of a particular municipality, but instead there should be negotiations and those people who want to be included must be allowed to be included and those who do not want to be included must simply be left out, without any force.  We therefore recommend to you, Mr Minister, that you take this matter up with the Chairperson and the Board itself, that that should be the case.

We are also aware, Mr Speaker, of the fact that about seven regional councils are without funds.  It will be ridiculous for anybody to simply suggest that the number of regional service councils should be increased to 10, because if seven regional councils could not afford to deal accordingly with finances, how much more so for 10 regional service councils.  That is why our firm position is that there should be eight regional service councils.

When one comes to the question of the Municipal Structures Act, which gave birth to the so-called property taxation, we are saying this Act should be revisited.  You cannot say to the poorest of the poor communities that they simply must pay taxes on their small houses, for their toilets, for their fields, for their water.  It is impossible, because those people are not working.  It is unrealistic to suggest that this should be implemented and that these people should be expected to pay these taxes.

In fact, when one comes to the question of a cross-border municipality, we are of the opinion that this matter should not simply be effected.  Instead there should be negotiations because this is tantamount to dodging the issue.  All we are saying is that areas like the Eastern Cape, the National Government must decide as to which side must it fall into, whether it must fall into the Eastern Cape or into KwaZulu-Natal.  Apparently the people in the communities are eager that priority be given to this matter.  We are of the opinion that if we entertain the luxury of the implementation of the so-called cross-border municipality, we will be defeating this Act.  So we say first things first.

We applaud the generosity of the Department, by seeing to it that the people who had been affected by storms and fires, were given protection and shelter.  We must encourage the other departments to do likewise when there are such disasters.  We therefore applaud the Department for its generosity of thinking about those communities that in fact needed to be assisted in this manner.

We unequivocally support the Minister for all he intends to do for our communities.  We are of the opinion that no stone should be left unturned in its efforts to do something in order to improve the standard of living for our deprived communities.

As I have indicated, Mr Speaker, earlier on, it is a unique occasion, such a thing has never happened in the past.  Government after government has never thought of improving the standard of living for our people.  The question of the Municipal Structures Act should be revisited, because it spells out that there should be a wall to wall municipality.  In the Act that wall to wall is not clearly spelt out, as to what the powers of traditional leaders and traditional communities are going to be. 

THE SPEAKER:  The hon member is left with a minute.

INKOSI S H GUMEDE: (Whip):  Thank you, sir.  We are of the opinion that the powers that are presently being exercised by traditional communities are now, would on a platter intentionally be given to the elected leaders who in fact would not know how to deal with it because as from time immemorial traditional leaders were in fact performing this duty.  We therefore say, Mr Speaker, this question of the Municipal Structures Act should be revisited because there are flaws in this Act.  I thank you, sir.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  I now call upon hon member Mr Bhamjee who has got 10 minutes.

MR Y S BHAMJEE:  Mr Speaker, I wish firstly to take this opportunity of thanking the Minister for presenting a very comprehensive report.  I congratulate him for being pro-active as far as Colenso is concerned.

However, looking at his response, I would appreciate it if the Minister could note that to ensure that the support and supportive mechanisms are in place, the political responsibility of the local councillors is not compromised, because that could well lead to a constitutional crisis.  I would strongly recommend that whilst the mechanisms are in place, the councillors are taken on board to lead the process of transformation, because if that does not happen then indirectly, if the administrator takes over this role, it will effectively mean that you are now implementing section 139 through the back door.  I would generally appeal to you and your senior staff to note the impact of such a measure.  However, on the whole, we do welcome the action that you have initiated.

The other important point that we need to bring to the notice of our colleagues here is that Colenso has a historical problem.  The auditor's report clearly indicates that about six years ago Colenso had a problem and if you subtract nine from six, you will find that it was during 1993 that Colenso first experienced problems.  These problems then had a snow-ball effect, in that a number of councillors and officials have been at one level. Officials, in fact, are alleged to have been involved in corrupt practices, etcetera.

What has transpired is that the Department has not developed a very healthy relationship between councillors and officials and hence we find that the CEO again in terms of the auditor's report, has not accounted for cheques, yet the CEO receives a golden handshake and he leaves and then he creates problems in Umkomaas.

The National Party did not fulfil its political obligation of ensuring that it fulfilled a PR position and hence when  criticism is levelled against the council for not having a quorum, often we hide the fact that some political parties are not prepared to take responsibility for not honouring their political obligations.  Why?  Furthermore, the CEO did not fulfil his responsibility of ensuring that the ward election took place.

So as far as a quorum is concerned, there are a number of factors.  The problem is not only that of the councillors, but the problem is that of the whole of Colenso and the new people that have come in and need to be pro-active.

So effectively, when we say we want transformation to take place, we want to ensure that you build capacity, but at the same time the previous CEOs who were there were either corrupt or alleged to be corrupt and did not fulfil their responsibilities meaningfully and hence you find that when councillors object to the way CEOs are operating, they then say: "We cannot work with these councillors".

That is just a point of introduction as far as Colenso is concerned, but in short, we welcome what the Minister has done and we trust that at the end of the day councillors will come on board to try and drive the process.  If that does not happen and after we have received a report, well, we may then review the possibility of the implementation of Section 139, but until such time I do not think we could opt for that option.

More important, in towns like Dundee, Pongola, Eshowe and other areas, we find the moment councillors confront the CEO with issues like corruption and him not fulfilling his role, we invariably find that the CEO offers his resignation and requests a golden handshake.  In Colenso there was a golden handshake given when it was indicated that the CEO was not competent.  In Dundee the CEO is not competent in taking up the issues of corruption and what happens?  He says now he will resign, provided he gets about R250,000 times two, plus R60,000 as a car allowance and yet he fails to take up the issues raised by the councillors.

So effectively, we are saying, in Dannhauser and other areas we find that the CEOs are not competent, the treasurers responsible are not competent and people who have not had a lot of experience are conveniently held responsible.  So effectively, hon Minister, we will appreciate it if you could take these things into account.  The eyes and the ears of members of Parliament here must also be opened because the CEOs who are highly incompetent are not assuming their responsibilities in driving the process forward.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS.

THE SPEAKER:  Order!  Order, hon member!  Order!  Ngiyacela malungu ahloniphekileyo asiziphathe njengamalungu ahloniphekileyo sibuke u-Rule 53 no-Rule-54 uyasisiza ukuthi sizokwenza kanjani.  [Hon members, I request you to please act in accordance with Rules 53 and 54].  Thank you, you may continue, hon member.

MR Y S BHAMJEE:  Having said that, Mr Speaker, let me focus very quickly on some of the issues as far as the demarcation process is concerned.  The hon Mark Lowe and the hon Volker effectively are living in the past.  They are not prepared to adjust to the new order.  Yes, in 1994 people said we will move peacefully into a new South Africa.  The adoption of the Constitution clearly indicated that we have done so.

Let us listen to what the hon Mark Lowe says.  To me it appears that he is a bit confused in relation to the demarcation process and the Constitution.  We need to know where he stands.  He states the Democratic Party also felt vindicated when the Constitutional Court gave its verdict on the Municipal Structures Act.  Mark Lowe is saying the decision is proof that the party does not criticise just for the sake of it.  Now listen to this.  Lowe said his Party was criticised by the ANC for questioning the Constitution: "But we are not critical because we do not like the Constitution, but because it cannot work".

What cannot work, the Constitution?  But the Constitution works because you went to the Constitutional Court to get a verdict.  So effectively we are saying that the Constitution is the supreme law.  The Constitutional Court, guided by the Constitution gave a clear ruling on the constitutionality of the Municipal Structures Act.  It gave a verdict and it gave clear direction.  The DP need to know what it is talking about before it starts criticising.

Secondly, the findings of the Court do not deter from the political fundamentals of the Municipal Structures Act, there are minor adjustments and those can be taken care of.  So in effect, the ANC's position is very, very clear, that it was a political blunder in the first instance for the Municipal Structures Act to be taken to the Constitutional Court.  Effectively, what ought to have happened, given the fact that the coalition process was in place, negotiations ought to have taken into account to see if we could have a provincial position to try and put the third aspect into account and that is whether all avenues were explored.  Effectively, now what we have done as a KwaZulu-Natal Government, is if we want to negotiate, we no longer can negotiate from a political perspective.  Our action has empowered the board.  The Demarcation board is autonomous and it is a very, very important point that we need to appreciate.  In the first instance, it was a bad decision and it was not a full Cabinet decision.  There was not full agreement as far as the Cabinet was concerned.  The ANC's position was very, very clear, let us not go to the Constitutional Court.

I want to speak about whether there is a process in terms of vision as far as the Demarcation Board is concerned.  Again, my colleague Mark Lowe is off the mark.  If you look at the documentation that has been provided by the Demarcation Board, they have been giving detailed outlines, and there is a vision.  Let us look at one.  Geographical Continuity, let me read it:

	Because municipal government is so closely tied to local identity and accessibility to local representatives, rationalisation should generally follow nearest neighbour principles, there should be geographically coherent consolidated Category B Municipalities.

On Capacity Development Act it states:

	Very small municipalities lack the potential to deal with the specialised and dedicated capacity that is necessary to effect good town planning, engineering and developing management and general services delivery in a country which is undergoing significant modernisation and change in its settlement system.

And the more important point and the final point ...

MR A RAJBANSI:  INTERJECTION.

MR Y S BHAMJEE:  Sorry?

MR A RAJBANSI:  At the workshop he kept his mouth shut.

MR Y S BHAMJEE:  That is a very interesting observation, Mr Rajbansi, thank you for bringing it to my notice and to that of the House. 

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS.

THE SPEAKER:  Order, hon member!  Order please hon member Mr Ntombela.

MR T D NTOMBELA:  Somlomo, ngicabanga ukuthi uma silana ilungu umalikhuluma li-debater kuloludaba esikhuluma ngalo, ngicabanga ukuthi kuhle sizwe sonke.  Manje asizwa ngendlela asheshisa ngayo uthi pa pa pa pa manje asizwa sonke akakhulume kuzwakale. [UHLEKO]  

TRANSLATION:  Mr Speaker, I think it is important that we all hear what this hon member has got to say.  He is speaking so fast that we cannot hear anything.  [LAUGHTER].  T/E

THE SPEAKER:  No, that is not a point of order.  That is not a point of order.  Hon member Mr Lowe?

MR C M LOWE:  Mr Speaker, the hon member has alluded to the fact that I failed to ask any questions at the workshop.  I wonder if the hon member would take a question from me to allow me to explain why I did not ask a question.

THE SPEAKER:  Order!  Order!  Are you prepared to take a question?

MR C M LOWE:  I think it is a very appropriate question.

THE SPEAKER:  Order, please!  Order!  Hon member, are you prepared to take a question?

MR A RAJBANSI:  On a point of order on this ...

THE SPEAKER:  Order!  Order, Mr Rajbansi!  Please take your seat, Mr Rajbansi, please take your seat.  Thank you.  

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS AND LAUGHTER.

THE SPEAKER:  Order!  Hon member Mr Bhamjee, are you prepared to take a question from the hon member?

MR Y S BHAMJEE:  No, no question.

THE SPEAKER:  You may continue, hon member.

MR Y S BHAMJEE:  I am sorry, hon member Ntombela if I cannot reach you - but perhaps afterwards we will try and discuss the issues in more detail.  The point I am trying to make ...

THE SPEAKER:  Order, please!  Order, Mr Bhamjee.

MR C M LOWE:  Mr Speaker ...

THE SPEAKER:  I think that you have heard the hon member that he is not prepared to take the question now.

MR C M LOWE:  I have heard that, Mr Speaker.  Mr Speaker, on a point of order, the hon member has alluded to some sort of fact that I am not doing my job properly by not asking questions.  I really do think that it would be an appropriate ...

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS AND LAUGHTER.

THE SPEAKER:  Order!  Order, please!  Order!  Order!  Order!  Order!

MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):  A point of order, Mr Speaker ...

THE SPEAKER:  Please take your seat, hon member, take your seat.  Allow the hon member Mr Bhamjee to continue and complete his speech, please.  Thank you.

MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):  Mr Speaker, you have ruled that that was not a point of order, I am happy, thank you.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  Please continue, complete your speech, please.

MR Y S BHAMJEE:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  Just for the hon member, one is trying to say as much as possible to put on record some of the issues some of our colleagues feel they can say certain things and get away with it, believing we do not have time to respond, but I recorded what you were saying.

THE SPEAKER:  The hon member is left with a minute.

MR Y S BHAMJEE:  One minute, okay.  Finally, let us read the most important point and that is:

	Wherever possible, current TLC's, TRC's in other areas should be combined with the view of realising of fiscally sustainable units with `weaker' areas being paired with `stronger' areas so as to achieve a sharing of existing or potential resources.

The Demarcation Board has a vision and my hon Chief on the other side, that the processes are unfolding, Chief Gumede, Inkosi Gumede, my ...

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS.

THE SPEAKER:  Order!  Order!  Order, hon member Mr Malakoana.  Order, please! 

MR M S MALAKOANA:  The hon Gumede has ...

THE SPEAKER:  Order!  Order, hon member!  Order!  Order, please!  Order!  Ngifisa ukukhumbuza ilungu elihloniphekileyo uMnumzane uMchunu ukuthi imina ophethe la, okufanele ahlale phansi nongahlali phansi imina engishoyo.  Ngicela ukusizwa kulokho ngicela singawubangi lomsebenzi.  Imina engizosukumisa abantu imina engiyothi abahlale phansi abantu, asingawubangi lomsebenzi, asingaqali umbango.

TRANSLATION:  I would like to remind the hon member Mr Mchunu that I am in control here.  I am the only person who is in a position to order an hon member to sit down or to speak.  I am the Speaker of this House and there is no contention about it.  I give the orders in this House.  T/E

Do you have a point of order, hon member?

MR M S MALAKOANA:  Mr Speaker, may the hon member recant the word `chief', we do not have a chief on this side, we have an Inkosi.  That is a point of order, if he can recant it, please.

THE SPEAKER:  Order!  Order!  Order!  Hon member.

MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):  A point of order.  It is not unparliamentary language and I ask you to rule that Mr Bhamjee carries on with his speech.

THE SPEAKER:  I would like to remind members that the name chief is no longer used in the Province.  Refer to Inkosi as Inkosi of KwaZulu-Natal.  Thank you.  Please complete your speech.  He is left with a few seconds to complete his speech.

MR Y S BHAMJEE:  Inkosi Gumede, what we are saying effectively ...

AN HON MEMBER:  INTERJECTION.

THE SPEAKER:  Hon member, let us give the hon member Mr Bhamjee a chance to finish his speech.  Do you have any point of order, hon member?  Yes?  Microphone, please.

MR B H CELE:  The first one who should tell me to sit down, Mr Speaker, if ...

THE SPEAKER:  Point of order, please.

MR B H CELE:  Yes, that is a point of order too.  Mr Ntombela has told me to sit down, I am giving ...

THE SPEAKER:  Ngizocela i-point of order nginikeze ilungu liqedele i-speech salo.  [Can we please listen to the point of order and let the hon member complete his speech].

MR B H CELE:  Thank you very much, Mr Speaker.  Mr Speaker, I am concerned about the ruling you have just made.  While we understand that the word `chief' is not used, is it unparliamentary or is it illegal?

THE SPEAKER:  I have said that the hon member must continue.  All I did was to bring to the attention of the member that in future he must not refer to the hon member as a chief.  The statute provides that he must be called Inkosi in terms of ...

MR B H CELE:  So it is illegal, the word?

THE SPEAKER:  That is an illegal term.  Thank you.  Please complete your speech.  Thank you.  Do you still have a point of order, Mrs Mohlaka?

MRS M S MOHLAKA:  My point of order is reflected in Rule 68 whereby we address each member as an hon member and not by any other name, thank you.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you for reminding us.  Any point of order?  He is left with 30 seconds.  I want to finish this.  Yes?

MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):  Thank you.  Mr Speaker, you will recall that yesterday I said sometimes it is a question of principle and precedent.  If there is a ruling in this House that we are not allowed to use the word `chief', then this side of the House would have a problem with it because there is then a precedent that has been set and the next time somebody uses the word `chief', he or she will, I assume, be ruled out of order.

THE SPEAKER:  Hon member, I do not know whether the hon member is trying to challenge my decision, but what I said was that legally speaking Amakhosi are not referred to as chief in KwaZulu-Natal, they are referred to as Amakosi.  That is the only thing.  Please complete your speech, hon member, 30 seconds.

MR Y S BHAMJEE:  Hon member, certainly I think we need to get together to discuss the issues because the media and others are misleading us on how the process will unfold.  There is no intention in any way as far as the regional authorities are concerned, to undermine the processes, or to undermine the dignity of traditional leaders.  What is required is how we engage with each other in discussion to find the way forward and that is clearly outlined as far as the demarcation guidelines are concerned.  So to say that traditional leaders in a way are going to be side-lined or ignored, is incorrect.  There is a process and everybody is going to be taken on board because it has to be an inclusive thing.

Finally, my last comment would be to the hon Minister.  Hon Minister, I think your report is a good one, you have given us clear guidelines on the way forward.

THE SPEAKER:  The hon member's time is up.

MR Y S BHAMJEE:  And we trust that at the end of the day, as far as Colenso is concerned, the principle of ensuring that the status of that council is not compromised will be taken into account.

THE SPEAKER:  The hon member's time is up.

MR Y S BHAMJEE:  Because that could lead to further complications.  Thank you very much.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  I will now call upon the hon Minister to reply to the debate.  Thank you.

INKOSI N J NGUBANE: Minister of Traditional Affairs, Safety and Security and Local Government):  Thank you very much, Mr Speaker and the hon House.

MR B H CELE:  A point of order, Mr Speaker.

THE SPEAKER:  Hon member Mr Cele?  Your microphone, please.

MR B H CELE:  Mr Ntombela, the hon member, is reading the newspaper in the House.

AN HON MEMBER:  Awu! ilumbo ngoba alikho nje.  [UHLEKO]   [It is a mistake there is no newspaper]. [LAUGHTER]

THE SPEAKER:  Please continue, hon Minister.  Continue, hon Minister.  [LAUGHTER]  Ayiqhubeke Inkosi.  [Continue hon Minister]  Order!  Order, please!

INKOSI N J NGUBANE: Minister of Traditional Affairs, Safety and Security and Local Government):  Mr Speaker, I would like to take this opportunity of thanking the hon House, or hon members, for the way in which they debated my report.  In fact, I was highly moved by the constructive criticisms put across.  Even the destructive ones are warmly welcomed by my Department because it is your democratic right, hon members, to do that.

Before saying anything, Mr Speaker, let me first perhaps address this issue of chief and Inkosi.  During the time of our KwaZulu Government, before KwaZulu Government came into being, we were referred to as chiefs.  All Amakhosi in the Republic of South Africa were referred to as chiefs.  Even His Majesty was called Paramount Chief.  Through legislation that was changed.  That is why we now have the King, and that is why we also have Amakhosi.

Therefore, it is legally correct in the Province of KwaZulu-Natal to refer to Amakhosi.  But to other provinces it is also legally correct to say chiefs.  Let us not make a fuss about this.  I know that sometimes people are used to saying chief, but if the point has now been made, I do not think we should make any further fuss about the issue.  I just wanted to correct that as far as the situation is concerned, that in this Province we are referred to as Amakhosi.  In fact, even in other provinces, they have adopted the same stance, although they do not have legislation on that, but they have also adopted the same procedure.  Ngakhoke umangabe kuthiwa Amakhosi - singakwenzi lokhu size sixabane sibange umsindo sixabane ngalokho singaMakhosi njekuphela.  [I do not think we need to make any further fuss about this matter as we are now referred to as Amakhosi].

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS AND LAUGHTER.

INKOSI N J NGUBANE: Minister of Traditional Affairs, Safety and Security and Local Government):  The hon member Mr E S Mchunu, addressed this House on the demarcation process.  He referred to the fact that I had mentioned that even the Department was involved in the demarcation process.  Yes, it was mentioned in that manner, but what we really meant was that when we are requested to make some inputs, that is what we as a Department do.  But what we should know is that the Demarcation Board is not compelled by circumstances to agree to our proposals.  They are having the final say.  Therefore we cannot say that we are together when applying the demarcation process in the Province, we are not together.  It is only to put suggestions across and that is all.  They have the final say on the matter.  Ngakhoke bangasho abantu ukuthi sengathi umakwenzeka lento bathi sisuke sivumelene, sisuke singavumelananga ngaleyonto esuke yenzeka. [Therefore people must not come to the conclusion by saying that we have agreed, we have not agreed.  There is no agreement at all]. 

Ngizwile futhi  [I also had] the hon member Mr Mchunu saying that regional councils are doing a very good job.  Yes, some of them are doing an excellent job, but what we must remember is that they are not all financially viable.  That is why some of the hon members referred to the fact that if among the seven regional councils in the Province, we find that some of them are not financially viable, what about increasing them then?

Some of the members alluded to the proposal from Amakhosi that perhaps it would have been better to have eight district councils, rather than having 10.  It was just a compromise suggestion from Amakhosi that if there could be eight, rather than 10, because some of the seven existing ones are not all financially viable.  If we are going to increase seven to 10, what is the situation going to be?

What is very bad in the Province, and we did not receive answers from the Demarcation Board to the question that we put, it is only in the Province of KwaZulu-Natal where it has been proposed that there are 10 district councils and the Metro.  In other provinces, the proposal starts from seven, downwards.  Why, especially in the Province of KwaZulu-Natal?  Is it perhaps because of the numbers?  Is it so?  Where does Gauteng come in?  Those are the issues that we are concerned about.

The hon member Mr J M Ngcobo, addressed the issue of transformation.  Yes, we must transform and it is our duty to transform.  There are problems among the local councils.  We do have problems.  What must be taken into account is that all these councils are fully autonomous.  They do not have to get a mandate from the Department in order to continue with their duties as councillors, they are fully autonomous.  They do not ask us what to do, what not to do.  With the process of transformation, it is not the Department who should encourage them to transform, but we are going to engage the portfolio committee responsible for local government, to assist and work together with us in order to address these issues.

The hon member Mr Lowe, in his speech with the establishment of new municipalities, I was concerned, because he referred to the fact that the Premier and I once objected.  Yes, we did object.  In fact, what we have been objecting to is the fact that we are concerned about the lack of consultation on many issues.  There is lack of consultation.

Therefore, it is correct to say we are not happy.  Even as I am standing here now, I am not happy about the lack of consultation, and the time frames that have been set.  Therefore we have not had sufficient time, as people of KwaZulu-Natal, to put our heads together in order to come to a certain resolution, we do not have the time.  We are not trying to put the blame on a certain political party.  No, no.  The blame, if there is any, is on the Board, not on a certain political party.

As some of the speakers have mentioned there are traditional leaders who have said no to inclusion, especially into the Metro.  You will find that the present proposals have included those traditional leaders.  I have mentioned to the Demarcation Board, that exclusion does mean inclusion in future.  If people say no to inclusion, they should be excluded because after being excluded, the very same people after two or three years the very traditional authorities, might after two or three years say: "No, no, no, we think we blundered, let us be included".  But once you have included them against their wishes, the door then only opens from the outside, not from the inside.  Once you are in you cannot reverse out, but if you are outside, you can come in.  That would be legal.  [LAUGHTER]  As Amakhosi that was our argument, as far as Amakhosi, especially traditional authorities, especially around Durban are concerned.

The hon member Mr Volker, spoke about the demarcation process, that it is quite impracticable.  The proposal to increase district councils, as I have said, especially to 10, we think that it is not going to work.  But we must remember that everything in regard to demarcation, it is not the National Government or the Provincial Government who has the final say but  the Demarcation Board.  That is the body which is well empowered and has the final say as it is going to do within a short space of time.

The hon member Mr Shabalala, touched on the financial instability of certain councils.  Even the hon member, the Chairperson of the portfolio committee addressed that issue.  What is important, as I have said, is that the local councils must do their work.  It is their work to collect tariffs from the community.  It is not my Department's work to do that.

In fact, that is not the only work they have.  They have  numerous responsibilities to fulfil in order to keep their councils intact and to keep them working.  Some of them are failing to do that.  That is why we have now offered them the services of Umsekeli to help them.  That does not mean that we as a Department, are just going to sit down and leave them with Umsekeli only.  As I have said, I am going to involve the portfolio committee to work together with the Department.  We will go out to these people, and we will be talking to these people, together with the portfolio committee, in order to promote capacity-building and other things as far as the smooth administration of these councils is concerned.

The hon member Mr Rajbansi, said that these councils do not have sufficient money.  In fact, we all know that there is a direct supply of money from the National Government that bypasses the provincial governments and goes straight to the municipalities.  It is what they do.  Whilst if everything goes well in these municipalities, you will never hear these municipalities referring to anything, or speaking to the Department or the Provincial Government, but once there is a problem these municipalities will refer everything, they then seek financial assistance from the very provincial department which did not supply them with any money from the word go.

That is the procedure that we, in South Africa must follow.  We must sit down and then address this because it is a political issue.  We must address these issues.  I thought what should have happened was that the National Government should have handed the money to the province, because the municipalities are a provincial competence and not a national competence.  Therefore, that money should have come to the provinces because we are a family with these municipalities in different provinces.  Unless that is addressed, it is going to create so many problems as far as the smooth running of all these municipalities are concerned.

The hon member also mentioned the possibility of traditional local governments, but all that was decided at national level.  If we were approached from the word go as to how to establish these municipalities and to include traditional structures, we would have been able to provide them with better ideas.  The hon member did say that during the KwaZulu Government time we did propose a possible way of introducing these municipalities into the traditional areas.  But because we were not consulted, everything was just pushed down our throats.  That is the reason for the problems we are facing today.

Hence, we have requested our hon Premier to request an audience with our President.  We are going to Pretoria this coming Saturday to meet our President, because we want to put these problems across to him.  Even if he is not prepared to accommodate these problems, he will know that we did consult with him because he is our President.  If we experience problems, as traditional authorities, we must approach him.  He is our President.  I am just trying to remind some of the colleagues that he is not only your President he is also our President.  

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS.


INKOSI N J NGUBANE: Minister of Traditional Affairs, Safety and Security and Local Government):  As far as the issue of Colenso, to my sister, the hon sister Mrs Downs, is concerned, I really agree with you.  What a remark from behind me.  Yes, Mrs Downs, is my sister.  Is it not so, Mrs Downs?

MRS J M DOWNS:  That is correct.

INKOSI N J NGUBANE: Minister of Traditional Affairs, Safety and Security and Local Government):  That is correct, she is my sister.

AN HON MEMBER:  NOT ON RECORD.  [LAUGHTER]

INKOSI N J NGUBANE: Minister of Traditional Affairs, Safety and Security and Local Government):  Umsekeli is involved in trying to address the issue of Colenso.  My reply to the previous speakers also applies to the hon member Mrs Downs.

During my address, I mentioned that opting for Section 139 would be the last resort.  We have not failed yet.  Therefore, please allow us sufficient time, to address these issues.  With the help from my portfolio committee, led by the hon member Mr Bhamjee, we are going to succeed.  I do not think in future we will need to use Section 139 to address these issues.  I think we as the Province have sufficient capacity.

As far as Mr Nxumalo is concerned, and naye ukhulume ngendaba yalaphana e-Colenso naye ukhale ngoMsekeli ukuthi uyasiza.  Wasekhala ngokuthi ukudluliswa kwezisebenzi kunenkinga ngoba lezozisebenzi zisuke zingaphethwe iKhansela.  [and he also touched on the issue of Colenso.  He mentioned the fact that Msekeli is helping a lot.  He also complained about the transfer of staff as those staff members are not employed by the local council].
After the transfer of staff to the municipality, it becomes the responsibility of that particular municipality to control those people who have already transferred.  It is not correct to say they cannot discipline them because they have been transferred to them, they are under the control of the Provincial Government.  That is what I understand by the term transfer.  It means that once you transfer the manpower, automatically, you also transfer the responsibility and the control at the same time.  Ngakhoke akulona iqiniso ukuthi bathi uma behluleka ukwenza umsebenzi wabo bathi ayi bahluleka ngoba umnyango ophethe lezozisebenzi, uma sesibanikile izisebenzi abazithathe phela.  Laba abakhuluma nge-Y2K problem angicabangi ukuthi nalapho.  [It is not the Department's fault that they cannot do their work.  They have employed the people who must now be controlled by them.  Those who have spoken about the Y2K problem, I do not think there is a problem].

If there are any provincial members who are misleading our municipal structures as far as Y2K is concerned, we are urgently going to address that.  It is very dangerous.  If we do come across such members, definitely the Department will do something to address that issue.

It was the hon member Mr Lowe, who said that delivery is very important, especially in rural areas.  What has been promised, by hearsay, from the National Government is that once these district councils are in place, including the municipalities, we are going to be receiving grants.  At present we have 75  municipalities in KwaZulu-Natal and more than 20 of these municipalities are not financially viable.  They are just small municipalities.  This figure increased when you include the 286 traditional authorities.  That is the reason for these very big municipalities, which is going to perhaps be very difficult to administer.

We are not saying it is going to be difficult.  I am saying, perhaps it will be very difficult to administer.  If we are now already failing to control these little municipalities, how much more with these vast big municipalities that are being proposed by the Demarcation Board?

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

INKOSI N J NGUBANE: Minister of Traditional Affairs, Safety and Security and Local Government):  That is the problem we are facing.  They always inform us that in the rural areas, these municipalities will be given grants.  We will be happy with those grants, but before you expect any grant from any municipality, the municipality must be financially viable itself.  It must be able to sustain itself before receiving a grant from the National Department.  That is the argument perhaps from some of us as far as these issues are concerned.

The hon Inkosi Gumede spoke about that Mbazwana Service Centre.  The Service Centre is there, and the Department wishes to expand those service centres.  In fact, that was just a pilot project in Mbazwana.  We intend to extend such projects to the other regional authorities.  We are very grateful that it is becoming a success because one of our objectives in the Department of Traditional and Local Government Affairs is to develop rural areas.  That was just a starting point what we did in the Mbazwana area.

I agree that the mandate should have come from the people whether they are for inclusion or exclusion.  I have addressed that.  The hon Inkosi was talking about the issue of the inclusion of Amakhosi in the Durban Metro.  I have addressed the issue of district councils and taxation and all those issues.

As far as cross-boundary municipalities are concerned, we are really experiencing a problem there.  We all know the results of that Trengrove Commission, which addressed the issue of the provincial boundaries.  Once you confront the people at grassroots level, with the issue of cross-boundary municipalities, the first question is: "Do you mean to say that Mt Ayliff will be included with KwaZulu-Natal?"  No, no, we are addressing the issue of cross-boundary - there is confusion amongst the people at grassroots level, that is why we were saying: "let us have sufficient time so as to avoid confusion at grassroots level."

We are living very peacefully with our neighbours in the Eastern Cape Government.  In fact, we are sharing a boundary there.  We do not want a situation to arise where there will be confrontation amongst the people at grassroots level in these two provinces.  Whatever we intend doing must be thoroughly debated and then properly passed on to the people at grassroots level so that they are aware of what is taking place.

As far as disaster management is concerned, in my Department, we have done our best to address the issue of those affected people as it was mentioned in my report, especially on pages 16 to 19.  My Department will keep on doing that whenever such disasters take place.

Inkosi addressed the issue of the powers of traditional authorities in these municipalities.  I can assure you, hon members, that until now we do not know of any powers that Amakhosi will be exercising in these municipalities.  What we do know is that everything we as Amakhosi have been doing is going to be done by the elected councillors.  I thought we would have our traditional MINMEC last week, but unfortunately it was cancelled.  I thought that during that meeting the hon Minister at national level would have told us about our powers in these so-called municipalities to be established in future.

The hon member Mr Bhamjee also addressed the issue of transformation.  I have addressed that.  The Colenso issue, I have addressed that.  With regards to the Dundee issue, Dundee, Eshowe and other areas, I have said that I am going to involve my portfolio committee to address those issues.

The matter of the CEO's failing to do their duties, it is the responsibility of that particular council to address the issue.  But as I have said, we together with the portfolio committee will try and intervene to see how far we can help these people, but they must not place their responsibilities on to us because we do not do that to them, we always do what we are expected to do.

With regards to having taken the Municipal Structures Act to court, I do not think, hon member, it was a blunder to do that.  The former hon Minister of Local Government, Mr Miller, did address us on that issue.  He said he tried to intervene, but failed, even at MINMEC meetings, tried to address the same issue.  Therefore, there was no option, after exhausting all avenues except to take the matter to the Constitutional Court, which I think is good, rather than arguing, fighting one another, spreading the bad gospel to people at grassroots level.  If we do not agree, that is the reason why the Constitutional Court was established, it was solely to address those issues.  What the Court decided in our favour was not only in the Province of KwaZulu-Natal, but in all provinces, in South Africa as a whole.

I would like to take this opportunity, Mr Speaker and the hon House, to thank the hon members for the manner, as I have said, in which they have debated my report.  At the same time I would like to thank the departmental Head of my Department, including the senior officials of my Department for their competence in addressing the departmental issues which are concerned.  I am very happy, I feel comfortable in this new portfolio of Local Government.  I have staff members who are competent, and who are always prepared to do something.

Last, but not least, let me thank the Chairperson of my portfolio committee and also the Portfolio Committee on Local Government.  The co-operation, the working together, the spirit, the togetherness that I always get whenever I attend portfolio committee meetings is wonderful.  Thank you very much.  I thank you, Mr Speaker.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  We have come to the end of item 8.3.  We will now deal with item 8.4 on the Order Paper.

8.4	MESSAGES OF GOODWILL FROM PARTY LEADERS

THE SPEAKER:  I will grant each leader about five minutes.    NjengeNkosi enomusa ngizobona ukuthi ngenza kanjani, kodwa you have roughly five minutes.  [I do not have a list but out of the kindness of my heart I will see what I can do].  l will now call upon the hon leader of the ANC.  The leader of the ANC.  Unfortunately I do not have the list, that is the unfortunate part.  The leader of the ANC?

MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):  Mr Speaker, with your permission, it might be a good idea to start with the small parties upwards and end with the ANC. 

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS.

THE SPEAKER:  Why can I not start with the big parties downward?  Okay, fine, it is all right.

MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):  Is it in order?  Thank you.

THE SPEAKER:  Mr Nxumalo? 

MR S N NXUMALO:  On behalf of the UDM I would like to take this opportunity to thank each and every one in this Legislature.  I know that this is our first opportunity to be in this Parliament and you have treated us very well.

I would also like to thank the Premier to have a member of the UDM in his team, a party with a vision of a winning nation and a slogan which says: "Do what is best for South Africa".  When you combine the above, the result is that the UDM will never be a stumbling block to the programmes aimed at improving the lives of our people.

I wish you all a good Christmas and a prosperous New Year.  God bless you all.  Thank you.

THE SPEAKER: Awu awu! umholi wangampela uthatha ngaphansi kweminithi.  [Thank you, you took less than a minute.  You are a true leader].  Thank you so much for saving time, Mr Nxumalo.  ACDP?

MRS J M DOWNS:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  Mr Speaker, our first thanks need to go to you and your staff and I would ask them especially to be careful over the Christmas and New Year period.  To all of my colleagues as well, and you better be very careful when you are driving back otherwise our hon traffic inspector will catch you.  I think if you ask many members of the House, they are all hurting in the pockets into the new millennium.

But seriously, I really would like to see all of you again in the new millennium, so I would like to ask you especially to drive carefully home and to drive carefully after your millennium parties and find a designated driver.  I hope I did not steal the hon member's thunder but I really do feel very strongly about that.

I would also like to pledge the ACDP's support to the Premier and his team.  To the Cabinet, we would like to get behind you in everything that is going to be a blessing for this Province.  We really love KwaZulu-Natal and we believe that we have such a different spirit and we have such an amazing Province and we would like to see it grow and prosper and get better and our people all better, and with that, blessings as well.

One of my colleagues who says why do we ever not say "I", although we are one in the House, we represent many people outside and it is their voices we represent, not our own opinions.  We would like to say God bless you all and we wish you the best wishes over the festive season and we wish you blessings and prosperity in the new millennium.  Thank you.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you so much, my sister.  Newborn nation.  [LAUGHTER]  Minority Front?

MR A RAJBANSI:  Mr Speaker, for the sake of gender balance, one of the new emerging leaders of the MF will speak, Shameen Thakur.

MISS S THAKUR:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  Thank you, Mr Rajbansi.  Hon members, colleagues and friends.  The question, is there such a plan for the new millennium and the answer we will never know because that plan is God's mission, was very well said by the hon Premier.  It is very thought provoking and very touching as we approach the new millennium.

General George Patton once said that battles are won by great execution and not great plans.  By this he meant that great execution can save a mediocre plan, but poor execution can ruin a great plan.  We South Africans have many battles ahead of us and we need to inculcate great execution abilities in our people to succeed with the great plans that lie ahead.

Our country is advancing in science and technology.  Perhaps we may be fortunate enough in the millennium to discover a miraculous cure for AIDS.  The Minority Front appeals to families and communities to foster orphan children, AIDS children, with their love and their time.

Our Province's and our country's commitment to work for peaceful co-existence encourages a healthy marriage of diverse cultures and development at all levels of society.  Leaders in all sectors of society, in particular our political leaders, share a collective responsibility in grooming our citizens in thought, word and deed.

The Minority Front is courageous to enter the new millennium and work in co-operation with all parties for, and in the best interests of the people.  Our wish for the New Year, a New Years resolution, is the same as that of the hon Premier's and that is that we must all work together and solve problems one by one.

At this time I want to thank the staff of both the Legislatures for their politeness and their assistance at all times.  Hon members, my message is very simply, we must do more than just look, we must see the other man's point of view.  We must do more than just hear, we must listen to what people are saying.  We must also do more than just speak, we must say something meaningful.  Hon members, point-scoring is not the way to go, we must work together, we must learn together, and that is the way to go.

Once again, I want to thank all the members for their peaceful and free spirits in the debates that we have had.  From the Minority Front, merry Christmas, happy New Year and see all of you in January.  God bless.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  Ngiyathokoza uma amalungu eziphatha kanje ingoba kukhuluma abaholi bayalalela.  [I am happy if the members behave in this manner, because it is now the turn of their leaders].  I will now call upon the hon leader of the New National Party.

MR V A VOLKER:  Mr Speaker, we have entered a new legislative period in the switch-over to the new millennium and I think it is befitting at the end of the first year within the new Legislature, also to remember that one of our very good friends who was in the previous Legislature, Mr Joe Mkhwanazi, is not with us here in the Legislature any more.

But, Mr Speaker, where we enter the festive season, we remember that if we co-operate with one another, if we take each other seriously, and if we approach our work seriously, there are far more fields of co-operation than there are of conflict.  Democracy implies that each party should be fairly represented, but within the party structures there can be co-operation on matters of common interest and we certainly look forward to that.

In passing I just say to all the friends of the New National Party, may I ask you all to drive safely.  And those of you who are not friends, who am I to tell you how to drive?

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  Democratic Party?

MR R M BURROWS:  Mr Speaker, I would just like to commence, if I may, on a note of seriousness, and it is simply, to express on behalf of all of us in the House, to all of those persons who have lost loved ones during the course of this year - and there has been a number - that we will remember them and have remembered them during the course of this year.

Mr Speaker, to you and the Deputy Speaker, to the Chairperson and the Deputy Chairperson of Committees, to the Leader of the House and all the Whips, that is all the parliamentary officials elected from amongst us, we thank you for the services you have rendered to all of us during this year.  It has been a trying year, a difficult one, but I think we have come through it and we have learnt from those experiences.

To the Secretary of Parliament and all the staff, the messengers, translators, all the committee clerks, we express our thanks for the work that they have done, once again, under somewhat difficult conditions.

To the hon the Premier, to himself personally and to each member of his Cabinet, we would like to express our best wishes for a calm and restful Christmas period.  We hope, sir, that you will not be called on to look at any crisis situation or emergency during the period between now and the time we convene again.

Particularly also to the hon the speed cop that is with us, that he, as Minister of Transport, will ensure, with all of our help, that accidents on the roads are kept to the minimum and that holiday makers enjoy this beloved Province.

Mr Speaker, the Democratic Party has always believed that the issues that join us together are much greater ...

MR B H CELE:  A point of order.

THE SPEAKER: Awu noma kukhuluma umholi point of order.  [You want to raise a point of order even while your leader is speaking].

MR B H CELE:  Mr Ngcobo of isingisi just look what he is doing.  [LAUGHTER]

MR R M BURROWS:  Mr Speaker, I am not sure that I will not withdraw the best wishes to the Chairman of Committees now.  Let me repeat that the Democratic Party has always believed that the issues that join us together in this House and in this country are much greater and much more important than those that divide us.  There are issues that divide us, otherwise there would not be seven parties in this House.  It is those issues that we must bring to the floor and debate.  It is on those issues that I hope in the new year we will have debates of consequence with sufficient time for everybody to express his views, so that Mr Rajbansi will not only have four minutes, but he will have sufficient time to expand on his views.  That is true of all of us, sir ...

MR A RAJBANSI:  INTERJECTION.

MR R M BURROWS:  I want to give you more, Raj.  We need to look at the issue of the seat of the Legislature, of the question of the Monarchy and its position in the constitution of this Province, and of traditional leadership in a system of local government.  That we do need to look into.  The hon Mr Ngidi was saying to me earlier by way of an interjection - we do need to look at the redistribution of wealth, because the greatest redistribution of wealth is called income tax and if income tax must go above 50% then, is that what the ANC is suggesting?  We need to discuss provincial tax and rates because all of that is important for all of us.

But, Mr Speaker, we adjourn this House today to go back to our constituencies, whatever they are and whoever they are, to serve them and to report back to them on how this House and its leadership is functioning.  But most important at this time, we go back to our families to share time with them over the Christmas period.  We, in the Democratic Party, wish you and your families all well.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  ANC?

MR J S NDEBELE: (Minister of Transport):  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  On behalf of the African National Congress I must say that we need to answer that question of one of the African writers' books who asked: "Why are we so blessed".  As one poet puts it, and I will paraphrase it, to be alive in this period is wonderful.  To be young was marvellous, but to be in KwaZulu-Natal was heaven itself.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

MR J S NDEBELE: (Minister of Transport):  It is not given to many generations to live through such an exciting decade as we have been fortunate to experience.  We will remember the mad idea that people could be liberated from the bondage of the pharaohs in Egypt.  At one time the only custodian of that idea was Moses and he was regarded as a mad person.  How could he think that these slaves could ever be free.  He was reviled for it, he suffered for it and indeed, he did not see the Promised Land.  Wayesezofika ekhaya.  [He was so close to home].

Like Moses, we have a number of our key citizens in this country who did not see this very exciting decade through.  I am thinking of the former President of the ANC, Mr Oliver Reginald Tambo.  I am thinking of that stalwart of the liberation struggle, Bishop Alpheus Zulu, Mr Mthimkhulu, Mr Chris Hani, Miss Dorothy Nyembe, Miss Florence Mkhize, Trevor Huddlestone, Baba Archie Gumede and our own member here, Mr Bheki Mthembu, who would have been sitting with us here.  But we have a powerful singing lady, Sibongile Khumalo, who is compiling songs that were sung that make us all proud.  They were sung by Princess Magogo.  She did not see this decade through.  Mama Nokukhanya Luthuli did not.  The question is, why are we so blessed?

But it is much more rare for any generation, not only to complete such an exciting decade, but to complete a century.  It is not a mistake that a number of innovators, that we owe so much to in this century were born on the other side.  Indeed if we were to go two centuries back, we know that Ilembe, who was born roundabout 1788, said: "Things must change.  I cannot live with such a small clan, disunited, despised", and he said: "Come next century, things are going to change", and they thought he was mad.  But he did change the face of this Province and gave birth to what is today called the Kingdom of the Zulus, the Kingdom of KwaZulu-Natal.

But coming to the last century, we had others who straddled this century and said: "Things must change". uBhambhatha kaMancinza wakwaZondi wathi.  Oppression or no oppression, there is something that we can do, and he moved and said: "Come next century, come 1900, things must change", and he moved, and he moved and inspired a whole century of liberators.

But there were others also as the century was coming to an end.  Albert Luthuli, Solo Msani, Inkosi uMini, Josiah Gumede who said we need an instrument to liberate our people.  We need and instrument that would empower our people and of course we need an instrument that would be a tireless defender of all the oppressed and they looked for an instrument and someone said, well, we cannot do anything because there was no ANC.  They said, well, if there is no ANC, let us create it because that is the only instrument that would be able to do these things that needed to be done in this country.  Indeed, in 1900, the Natal Native Congress was born, because they said if there is no ANC, there will be no liberation and therefore let us create it.

But so did Mahatma Gandhi.  He saw all this oppression around him, and he said let there be an instrument, let us fight.  And indeed, he created that pride and the possibility of one nationhood here, which we talk so nicely about today.

But amongst the whites, there is always this mistake of thinking that whites were just oppressors or are just oppressors.  It is not true, it has not been historically true.  Indeed, it was Bishop Colenso himself who described what they call the Shepstonian Clique, by which he meant those whites who thought that in order to be white was to be an oppressor.  I am talking about Pomeroy, Melmoth Osborne, Bulwer, and right down Boquin.  There was a section of whites who thought that in order to be white is to be an oppressor, but there were others.  Bishop Colenso himself, his daughter Harriet.  We had Alan Paton, we had Shreiner, we had Edgar Brooks, Peter Brown, Roly Arenstein, Rick Turner, Archbishop Hurley and many others.  Some we have got in this House.  Those are the people who said it is possible to have a non-racial democracy here in this country and they straddled this century and they were inspired and today we have got that non-racialism.

And of course to straddle a millennium is given to very, very few generations indeed.  We know one person who spoke about the birth of Jesus was eaten up for breakfast, John the Baptist.  Some silly daughter of Herod demanded his head for breakfast, for fun. Such a cruel woman.  And they did not see that Christendom coming through.

We are very blessed people and the power is within these 80 people who are here to make this Province a province of peace, of reconciliation, and of development.  The foundation is firmly laid now and it is this responsibility that we must discharge and say things must change, a new beginning must be enacted.

Let me end by saying that we assure you, as we end this session and we are going into recess and as soon as you allow me I will be downing my hat and be ready to do battle on the roads and I am not going to be sending any deputies, I am going to be there myself.

Next week we will be announcing that we are entering into a public/private partnership with a Johannesburg Company, Medical Rescue, who are offering us two helicopters which we will be using during this period, mostly in the areas outside Durban/Pietermaritzburg, to ensure that full medical equipment is available to those people who might be involved in this carnage.

We are going to be calling on volunteers.  We have already requested some shops and they have agreed to set up rest places along the N2 and all these roads where you have to drive for long stretches, where you will then be able to stop and have coffee, stretch and then continue your journey.  We have asked for volunteers to come there and take a turn to make coffee for the motorists and the traffic officers and so forth.  We are calling on the private sector to do and replicate what Medical Rescue is doing and with all our power we will try to ensure that all of us kungathiwa ubesezofika ekhaya   [he was so close to home].  That is going to be a group effort.  I hope I will not have to give any member of this House a ticket myself, or any of my officials.  [LAUGHTER]

We thank you, Mr Speaker, for the manner in which you have conducted this House, it has been very dignified.  We thank the Premier, the Cabinet, and our colleagues in this House, for the fraternal relationship that has developed.  There is a very solid base for us to ensure that things must definitely change come the year 2000 onwards.  That will be the tradition that we will be carrying.  Thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!  Hear!

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  We have come to the end of our day's Order Paper.  Before we close - khona inkinga ekhona la.  [There is a problem here].  Okay, fine.  Before we close, I would then ask the hon Premier whether he has got any announcements.

THE PREMIER:  Hon Speaker, hon Cabinet colleagues and hon members of the House, may we wish you a merry Christmas and a prosperous New Year.  May the joy and love of Christmas be showed in your lives during the festive season.  I thank you.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  Ngizicela ukukhumbuza amalungu ukuthi ngenxa yesikhathi ngibe sengikhuleka ukuthi ukudla banilungisele kuhlale kushisa nje, ngase ngihlela nanokuthi ngenxa yokuthi amanzi awamahle ngase nginitholela amanzi amhle.  Awu bakithi kumnandi ukuba nomusa.  

TRANSLATION:  I would like to remind the members that we are running out of time.  I have requested the caterers to keep the food ready and fresh.  I have arranged for water for the members as the water which we usually drink is not suitable.  I am glad that I am a kind person.  T/E

So the House adjourns sine die.

	HOUSE ADJOURNED AT 13:26 SINE DIE























